[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
R. LIPRIE
RLIPRIE at centurytel.net
Thu Jun 14 21:17:32 AKDT 2007
lol.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Maxwell" <patternrules at hotmail.com>
To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
> At least Mark didn't try to compare it to golf, drive it in the rough,
> then
> the sand trap, miss the green, and chip it in for par.
>
> Steve Maxwell
>
>
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Pete, Mark, Arch . . . . .
>
> You guys should start planning the next D4 judging seminar
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Archie Stafford <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:56:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
>
> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
>
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> I will agree with Keith and Mark.best
> analogy I can give is like in sports, guys say the "game slows down"
> after they figure things out..Same as in pattern.
> Things happen so quickly in the upper classes you have to be watching at
> all times, and don't have time to think "did I just see that?" on a nasty
> windy day
> I've watched my scores get hit because of wind correction. One judge sees
> it correctly, but more times than not the one with less experience notices
> the
> plane rather than and track and their brain says "that can't be
> right. You can sit through all the
> judging seminars in the world, but until the knowledge is applied, it
> doesn't
> matter. Doesn't matter what class
> they fly. I know guys that are average
> pilots that are incredible judges, because they've done it before. No one
> is as good a judge as the first flight
> they see as their 500th. Just
> doesn't happen. If that was the
> case, then why worry about which judges we send to the world team
> trials..why not just give everyone
> a written test and who ever scores the highest must be the best..you guys
> know that isn't true, that is why we have the software that evaluates
> judges. I would be interested to see the
> results of that software with guys who are judging their first nats and
> see
> where they rank among judges.
>
>
>
>
>
> Arch
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> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Black
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:01
> PM
>
> To: NSRCA
> Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
> Nats registration
>
>
>
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>
> Since no one else will stick out their neck, I will. Mark is
> 100% correct.
>
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> The problem has nothing to do with class, intelligence or
> ability, just experience. Not all, but most, intermediate pilots are
> simply
> so
> new to pattern that they don't know everything to look for. This is why in
> most
> cases FAI judges give out lower scores than intermediate judges. Not
> because
> FAI judges are meaner or more conceited, but because they notice more. One
> could argue that it doesn't matter as long as scores are consistent, but
> this
> just isn't the case. When judges notice fewer things, like Mark's example
> of the snap below, scores begin to rise and it's more difficult for pilots
> to distinguish
> themselves. For example, pilot A and B both fly the 45 degree down snap
> centering and stopping it perfectly, but pilot A didn't match the entry
> and
> exit radius (very easy to miss for pilot and judge). If a judge does not
> notice
> this then pilot B is penalized and though he performed better on paper he
> wasn't able to distinguish himself. As a contestant this can be extremely
> frustrating.
>
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> Frankly, there's so much going on in our flights that it's
> pretty much impossible to catch every altitude difference, centering
> difference, radius difference, wind correction, etc. To expect they guy
> that's just moved from Sportsman to do so is really unreasonable.
>
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> So, am I against Intermediate or Sportsman judges at local
> contests? No, they need the experience and judging can teach a pilot
> so much! It's well worth the occasional round that may not be spot on in
> judging to get these guys experience because in a few years THEY will be
> writing this email.
>
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> If your an Intermediate or Sportsman pilot that's competed
> in fewer than about 15 to 20 contests and this pisses you off all I can
> say what every parent tells their kids, in a few years you'll understand,
> there's really nothing to argue about. And though it seems so, I'm not
> trying
> to be condescending.
>
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> Keith
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> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mark
> Atwood
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14,
> 2007 3:49 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
>
>
>
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>
> Again, I simply have to agree to
> disagree. Don't really want a battle over it. My suggestion
> would be to talk to someone that judges ice skating or as I mentioned
> before,
> diving. An inexperienced judge, even knowing all the rules and
> downgrades, can do little more than judge the landing. And that's
> what we get...Downward 45 snaps that are judged 99% on the exit of the
> snap
> with little attention to the centering, entry and exit radius, etc.
> But maybe more to the point, I know at least MY experience
> has been, if I'm flying in high wind in front of a masters pilot, I pay a
> LOT of attention to proper wind correction, knowing that even though the
> maneuver looks wrong, it's not, and will be judged appropriately because
> that person can fly that same correction, and knows what it has to look
> like.
> If I have an inexperienced judge...I focus on "smooth", with
> less wind correction, worrying less about proper 'Track' 45's
> than proper attitude 45s..etc. I think you'll find a lot of
> flyers do the same. Is it right?? Don't know...but it's
> certainly the reality.
>
>
>
> I know I'm disparaging the intermediate judge...I don't mean to do
> that. Some are extremely good. It's not the class you fly as
> much as total experience and exposure. Dave Klein (father to Mike Klein,
> former TOC pilot) never flew above the old Sportsman routine, but did so
> for
> MANY years, and also watched Mike fly about 10,000 practice flights of FAI
> and
> TOC patterns. He knew what he was looking for. I'm sure
> there are intermediate flyers out there with equal skills in the chair.
>
>
>
> Judging schools are GREAT...a tremendous help. Even the poorest ones add
> value. AND...yes, there are 15 year master's pilots who are
> probably bad judges. But on any given day, the odds are that
> the experienced pilot is going to be a better judge than an inexperienced
> pilot. Again...My opinion.
>
>
>
> So it goes back to Ron's comment...that the CD's job is to identify
> which of the various pilots are "qualified"...
>
>
>
> -M
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/14/07 1:01 PM, "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:
>
>
> there's a big difference in PLAYING a game of strategy and
> OBSERVING the RESULTS of someone performing aerobatics.
>
>
>
> You don't even need to know all the rules to observe.
>
>
>
> You don't need to know the weight limit, maximum length or wingspan of the
> model.
>
>
>
> You don't have to know how to compensate for wind in order to be able to
> see
> if
> a vertical line got blown sideways and should be downgraded.
>
>
>
> Knowing the names of the pieces (maneuvers) and the shape of the board
> (limits
> of the box) and the basic movements of the pieces (textbook description of
> loop, roll, spin, snap...) will get you MUCH further judging than actually
> playing.
>
>
>
> Even a judge at a chess tournament only needs to know how to recognize an
> illegal move. They don't have to be able to beat the worst player in the
> High School chess club.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
> From: Mark Atwood <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
>
>
>
>
> To: NSRCA
> Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007
> 10:44 AM
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
> Nats registration
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm going to simply agree to disagree. Experience in flying,
> helps your experience in judging, IMHO.
>
>
>
> I'll use a few analogies... Chess. I know
> the rules. I'm even a decent player. My son is
> 10...also knows the rules, and for 10, plays ok. But when he looks
> at the board, he sees 64 squares and a myriad of pieces. He has to
> evaluate each piece in turn, taking considerable time to make his move.
> By contrast, my experience allows me to set "groups" of
> pieces as a single formation...a master player, sees the entire board as
> a single position, and knows instantly the next move to make.
>
>
>
> One more quick comparison and I'll try and related it to pattern
> judging...lol
>
>
>
> Diving. How many of you have watched the olympic diving and seen
> someone do a blinding 3 somersault half twist whatever, only to have the
> announcer say..."He's going to have to do a better job of
> keeping his knees together and holding the tuck farther in the
> rotation...blah blah blah" and think to yourself HUH?? Did they
> actually SEE that?? And sure enough, in the slow mo...that's
> EXACTLY what happened. The commentator DIDN'T see it...but
> they knew from the outcome WHAT MUST HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from
> their own experience.
>
>
>
> Back to flying. Much of what we do is anticipate problems and fix
> them. Some may disagree, but often, judging is know what must
> have happened to get you into the bad place. That takes
> experience...I think flying experience, though I suppose significant
> judging experience could achieve the same. Bottom line...a
> sportsman/intermediate
> pilot, unless they've been flying and judging that class for many
> years, doesn't have the experience necessary to judge FAI or
> Masters Real Time. You have to see too much, too fast. You
> can't evaluate all the pieces on the board...you have to see the
> board as a single position.
>
>
>
> My .02 cents.
>
>
>
> That being said...I fully agree that Intermediate pilots should be used
> to judge Advanced...mixed with Masters pilots...thats the best way to
> learn and you'll still get a good judging result.
>
>
>
> -Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/14/07 10:57 AM, "Zapata, Lisandro Arturo"
> <Lisandro.Zapata at rsandh.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> IMHO
>
>
>
> Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own
> sequences, doesn't mean that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the
> knowledge and the ability to judge correctly then you should use him to
> judge FAI. Is common to think that a FAI pilot who has to know to fly
> with all the rules in his mind must be a great judge but is not always
> the case, they can be a terrible judge and a great flyer.
>
> I had seen FAI judges that they aren't even pilots, but they know the
> rules.
>
>
>
> Arturo
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007
> 10:34 AM
>
> To: NSRCA
> Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration
>
>
>
> My comments regarding not all Intermediate class pilots being qualified
> to judge Advanced is from experience. A lot of Intermediate class
> pilots just moved up from Sportsman and barely know how to fly their own
> sequences, much less judge a class above them. They don't have the
> basic knowledge of how to judge correctly. I've had Intermediate
> pilots ask to be assigned to any other job than being a judge of Advanced
> pilots because they didn't feel qualified.
>
>
>
> Further, like all programs, our judging certification program often
> leaves a lot to be desired. Despite the efforts of a lot of people
> like Don Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in a group
> with a lot of other guys who all took the "test" together?
> I've seen it happen far too often. Judge certification
> classes run by Don Ramsey at the Nats take several hours. I've
> watched some local classes take less than an hour and most of that was
> taking the test. For experienced judges, just taking the test is
> probably enough, because they have familiarized themselves with changes
> to the rules and only need to take the test. However, I believe
> that pilots who are inexperienced judges are being shortchanged at the
> local level.
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:12 AM, John Ferrell wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I find the lack of confidence in the Judging Certification
> Program to be an insult to those who put forth so much effort into
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who choose to
> not waste their time knowing the AMA rule book. And there are many
> pilots who are new to the Pattern Discipline that have read and
> continue to read the Rule book like the Bible!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The class one flies is not a good indicator of their judging
> qualities.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Ferrell W8CCW
>
> "Life is easier if you learn to plow
>
> around the stumps"
>
> http://DixieNC.US
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
> From: Ron Van Putte <mailto:vanputte at cox.net>
>
>
>
>
> To: NSRCA
> Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
>
>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007
> 7:44 PM
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
> Nats registration
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It is true that SOME Intermediate pilots are qualified to judge
> Advanced and are used if they are. The event director's job
> is to discover who is qualified. That's why we pay him the
> big $. <VBG>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Provided that the Intermediate pilots aren't
> qualified to judge Advanced, right? And since there are 20
> Intermediate pilots they can help out with judging Advanced as well
> - since everyone has to be certified.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/13/07, Ron Van Putte
> <vanputte at cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As a former Nats event director, I must point out that the Master
> class pilots are used to judge the Advanced AND F3A pilots, thus
> the problem with the number of Master class pilots. If you
> use three judges on both Advanced lines, that's six judges each session.
> Then, if there are four F3A lines, that's another twelve
> judges. So, the first two sessions of Advanced and F3A
> requires 36 Master class judges. Oh oh! we run out
> of Master class judges on the third day if we only have 40 Master
> class pilots and nobody volunteers to judge extra sessions.
> That's why Dave Guerin's hair is turning gray/falling out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
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>
> On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And for one year there will actually be enough judges to judge
> Masters - we've always struggled with not having enough F3A pilots
> to fill the Masters judging pool.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/13/07, Jim Woodward
> <Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com <mailto:Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow - Awesome! The
> Masters pilots will get a taste of judging a highly attended FAI
> class! J J J
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
> Jim W.
>
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> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> ] On Behalf Of Derek
> Koopowitz
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13,
> 2007 12:41 PM
>
> To: NSRCA
> Mailing List ; dist7 at nsrca.org
>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
> Nats registration
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> It looks like we have 115 total registered pilots for
> the Nats this year (from the AMA website)...
>
>
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> Intermediate - 20
>
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> Advanced - 16
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> Masters - 40
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> FAI - 39
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> Those are excellent #'s and I'm hoping that there
> will still be some late entries that will raise those numbers even
> more.
>
>
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