[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

Thu Jun 14 18:51:23 AKDT 2007

Pete, Mark, Arch . . . . . 

You guys should start planning the next D4 judging seminar   

Bob Kane
getterflash at yahoo.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Archie Stafford <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:56:57 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

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I will agree with Keith and Mark…best
analogy I can give is like in sports, guys say the “game slows down”
after they figure things out..Same as in pattern. 
Things happen so quickly in the upper classes you have to be watching at
all times, and don’t have time to think “did I just see that?”  on a nasty windy day
I’ve watched my scores get hit because of wind correction. One judge sees
it correctly, but more times than not the one with less experience notices the
plane rather than and track and their brain says “that can’t be
right.  You can sit through all the
judging seminars in the world, but until the knowledge is applied, it doesn’t
matter.  Doesn’t matter what class
they fly.  I know guys that are average
pilots that are incredible judges, because they’ve done it before.  No one is as good a judge as the first flight
they see as their 500th.  Just
doesn’t happen.  If that was the
case, then why worry about which judges we send to the world team trials..why not just give everyone
a written test and who ever scores the highest must be the best….you guys
know that isn’t true, that is why we have the software that evaluates
judges.  I would be interested to see the
results of that software with guys who are judging their first nats and see where they rank among judges.

Arch

From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Black

Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:01
PM

To: NSRCA
 Mailing List

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats registration

Since no one else will stick out their neck, I will. Mark is
100% correct. 

The problem has nothing to do with class, intelligence or
ability, just experience. Not all, but most, intermediate pilots are simply so
new to pattern that they don't know everything to look for. This is why in most
cases FAI judges give out lower scores than intermediate judges. Not because
FAI judges are meaner or more conceited, but because they notice more. One
could argue that it doesn't matter as long as scores are consistent, but this
just isn't the case. When judges notice fewer things, like Mark's example
of the snap below, scores begin to rise and it's more difficult for pilots to distinguish
themselves. For example, pilot A and B both fly the 45 degree down snap
centering and stopping it perfectly, but pilot A didn't match the entry and
exit radius (very easy to miss for pilot and judge). If a judge does not notice
this then pilot B is penalized and though he performed better on paper he
wasn't able to distinguish himself. As a contestant this can be extremely
frustrating. 

Frankly, there's so much going on in our flights that it's
pretty much impossible to catch every altitude difference, centering
difference, radius difference, wind correction, etc. To expect they guy
that's just moved from Sportsman to do so is really unreasonable.

So, am I against Intermediate or Sportsman judges at local
contests? No, they need the experience and judging can teach a pilot
so much! It's well worth the occasional round that may not be spot on in
judging to get these guys experience because in a few years THEY will be
writing this email. 

If your an Intermediate or Sportsman pilot that's competed
in fewer than about 15 to 20 contests and this pisses you off all I can
say what every parent tells their kids, in a few years you'll understand,
there's really nothing to argue about. And though it seems so, I'm not trying
to be condescending.

Keith

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Mark
Atwood 

To: NSRCA Mailing List 

Sent: Thursday, June 14,
2007 3:49 PM

Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

Again, I simply have to agree to
disagree.  Don’t really want a battle over it.  My suggestion
would be to talk to someone that judges ice skating or as I mentioned before,
diving.  An inexperienced judge, even knowing all the rules and
downgrades, can do little more than judge the landing.  And that’s
what we get...Downward 45 snaps that are judged 99% on the exit of the snap
with little attention to the centering, entry and exit radius, etc.
   But maybe more to the point, I know at least MY experience
has been, if I’m flying in high wind in front of a masters pilot, I pay a
LOT of attention to proper wind correction, knowing that even though the
maneuver looks wrong, it’s not, and will be judged appropriately because
that person can fly that same correction, and knows what it has to look like.
 If I have an inexperienced judge...I focus on “smooth”, with
less wind correction, worrying less about proper ‘Track’ 45’s
than proper attitude 45s..etc.   I think you’ll find a lot of
flyers do the same.  Is it right??  Don’t know...but it’s
certainly the reality.

I know I’m disparaging the intermediate judge...I don’t mean to do
that.  Some are extremely good.  It’s not the class you fly as
much as total experience and exposure.  Dave Klein (father to Mike Klein,
former TOC pilot) never flew above the old Sportsman routine, but did so for
MANY years, and also watched Mike fly about 10,000 practice flights of FAI and
TOC patterns.  He knew what he was looking for.   I’m sure
there are intermediate flyers out there with equal skills in the chair.

Judging schools are GREAT...a tremendous help.  Even the poorest ones add
value.  AND...yes, there are 15 year master’s pilots who are
probably bad judges.    But on any given day, the odds are that
the experienced pilot is going to be a better judge than an inexperienced
pilot.   Again...My opinion.

So it goes back to Ron’s comment...that the CD’s job is to identify
which of the various pilots are “qualified”...

-M

On 6/14/07 1:01 PM, "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:

there's a big difference in PLAYING a game of strategy and
OBSERVING the RESULTS of someone performing aerobatics.

You don't even need to know all the rules to observe.

You don't need to know the weight limit, maximum length or wingspan of the
model.

You don't have to know how to compensate for wind in order to be able to see if
a vertical line got blown sideways and should be downgraded.

Knowing the names of the pieces (maneuvers) and the shape of the board (limits
of the box) and the basic movements of the pieces (textbook description of
loop, roll, spin, snap...) will get you MUCH further judging than actually
playing.

Even a judge at a chess tournament only needs to know how to recognize an
illegal move.  They don't have to be able to beat the worst player in the
High School chess club.

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  Mark  Atwood <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>

To: NSRCA
 Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007
10:44  AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats  registration

I’m going to simply agree to disagree.   Experience in flying,
helps your experience in judging,  IMHO.

I’ll use a few analogies...    Chess.  I know
 the rules.  I’m even a decent player.  My son is
10...also knows the  rules, and for 10, plays ok.  But when he looks
at the board, he sees 64  squares and a myriad of pieces.  He has to
evaluate each piece in turn,  taking considerable time to make his move.
 By contrast, my experience  allows me to set “groups” of
pieces as a single formation...a master player,  sees the entire board as
a single position, and knows instantly the next move  to make.

One more quick comparison and I’ll try and related it to  pattern
judging...lol

Diving.  How many of you have watched the  olympic diving and seen
someone do a blinding 3 somersault half twist  whatever, only to have the
announcer say...”He’s going to have to do a better  job of
keeping his knees together and holding the tuck farther in the
 rotation...blah blah blah” and think to yourself HUH?? Did they
actually SEE  that??  And sure enough, in the slow mo...that’s
EXACTLY what happened.   The commentator DIDN’T see it...but
they knew from the outcome WHAT MUST  HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from
their own experience.

Back to flying.   Much of what we do is anticipate problems and fix
them.   Some  may disagree, but often, judging is know what must
have happened to get you  into the bad place.  That takes
experience...I think flying experience,  though I suppose significant
judging experience could achieve the same.   Bottom line...a sportsman/intermediate
pilot, unless they’ve been flying  and judging that class for many
years, doesn’t have the experience necessary  to judge FAI or
Masters Real Time.  You have to see too much, too fast.   You
can’t evaluate all the pieces on the board...you have to see the
 board as a single position.

My .02 cents.

That being said...I  fully agree that Intermediate pilots should be used
to judge Advanced...mixed  with Masters pilots...thats the best way to
learn and you’ll still get a good  judging result.

-Mark

On 6/14/07 10:57 AM, "Zapata, Lisandro  Arturo"
<Lisandro.Zapata at rsandh.com> wrote:

IMHO

Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own
sequences,  doesn't mean that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the
knowledge and  the ability to judge correctly then you should use him to
judge FAI. Is  common to think that a FAI pilot who has to know to fly
with all the rules  in his mind must be a great judge but is not always
the case, they can be a  terrible judge and a great flyer.

I had seen FAI judges that they aren't  even pilots, but they know the
rules.

Arturo

From:
 nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
 On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte

Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007
 10:34 AM

To: NSRCA
 Mailing List

Subject: Re:
 [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

My comments regarding not all  Intermediate class pilots being qualified
to judge Advanced is from  experience.  A lot of Intermediate class
pilots just moved up from  Sportsman and barely know how to fly their own
sequences, much less judge a  class above them.  They don't have the
basic knowledge of how to judge  correctly.  I've had Intermediate
pilots ask to be assigned to any  other job than being a judge of Advanced
pilots because they didn't feel  qualified. 

Further, like all programs, our judging certification  program often
leaves a lot to be desired.  Despite the efforts of a lot  of people
like Don Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in  a group
with a lot of other guys who all took the "test" together?
  I've seen it happen far too often.   Judge certification
 classes run by Don Ramsey at the Nats take several hours.  I've
watched  some local classes take less than an hour and most of that was
taking the  test.  For experienced judges, just taking the test is
probably enough,  because they have familiarized themselves with changes
to the rules and only  need to take the test.  However, I believe
that pilots who are  inexperienced judges are being shortchanged at the
local level.

Ron  Van Putte

On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:12 AM, John Ferrell  wrote:

I find the  lack of confidence in the Judging  Certification
Program to be an  insult to those who put forth so much effort  into
 it.

There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who  choose to
 not waste their time knowing the AMA rule book. And there are many
  pilots who are new to the Pattern Discipline that have read and
 continue to  read the Rule book like the Bible!

The class one flies is not a good indicator of  their  judging
qualities.

John Ferrell    W8CCW

"Life is  easier  if you learn to plow 

       around   the stumps"

http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----  

From:  Ron Van Putte <mailto:vanputte at cox.net>

To: NSRCA
 Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007
7:44   PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats   registration

It is true that SOME   Intermediate pilots are qualified to judge
Advanced and are used  if they  are.  The event director's job
is to discover who is  qualified.   That's why we pay him the
big $.   <VBG>  

Ron Van  Putte

On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:51 PM,  Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Provided that the Intermediate pilots  aren't
 qualified to judge Advanced, right?  And since there  are 20
 Intermediate pilots they can help out with judging  Advanced as well
-  since everyone has to be  certified.

On 6/13/07, Ron Van  Putte
 <vanputte at cox.net>  wrote:  

As a former Nats event  director, I  must point out that the Master
class pilots are  used to judge the  Advanced AND F3A pilots, thus
the problem  with the number of Master  class pilots.  If you
use three  judges on both Advanced lines,  that's six judges each session.
  Then, if there are four F3A lines,  that's another twelve
 judges.  So, the first two sessions of  Advanced and F3A
 requires 36 Master class judges.   Oh oh! we  run out
 of Master class judges on the third day if we only have 40   Master
class pilots and nobody volunteers to judge extra  sessions.
  That's why Dave Guerin's hair is turning  gray/falling out.

Ron Van  Putte

On Jun 13,  2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz  wrote:

And for one year there will  actually be enough judges to judge
 Masters - we've always  struggled with not having enough F3A pilots
to  fill the  Masters judging pool.

On  6/13/07, Jim  Woodward
 <Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com  <mailto:Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com>
 > wrote:  

Wow –  Awesome!   The
Masters pilots will get a taste of judging a   highly attended FAI
class!  J  J  J   

Jim   W.

From:
 nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
  <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
 ]  On Behalf Of Derek
  Koopowitz

Sent:  Wednesday, June 13,
2007  12:41 PM

To: NSRCA
 Mailing List ;  dist7 at nsrca.org

Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
 Nats  registration 

It looks like we have 115 total  registered  pilots for
the Nats this year (from the AMA   website)...

Intermediate -  20

Advanced -  16

Masters -  40

FAI - 39

Those are excellent #'s and I'm hoping  that  there
will still be some late entries that will raise  those numbers  even
more.

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