<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Pete, Mark, Arch . . . . . <br><br>You guys should start planning the next D4 judging seminar <img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/13.gif"><br><div> </div>Bob Kane<br>getterflash@yahoo.com<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Archie Stafford <rcpattern@stx.rr.com><br>To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:56:57 PM<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration<br><br><title>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration</title>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I will agree with Keith and Mark…best
analogy I can give is like in sports, guys say the “game slows down”
after they figure things <span class="SpellE">out<span class="GramE">..Same</span></span><span class="GramE"> as in pattern.</span><span style="">
</span>Things happen so quickly in the upper classes you have to be watching at
all times, and don’t have time to think “did I just see that?”<span style=""> </span><span class="GramE">on</span> a nasty windy day
I’ve watched my scores get hit because of wind correction. One judge sees
it correctly, but more times than not the one with less experience notices the
plane rather than and track and their brain says “that can’t be
right.<span style=""> </span>You can sit through all the
judging seminars in the world, but until the knowledge is applied, it doesn’t
matter.<span style=""> </span>Doesn’t matter what class
they fly.<span style=""> </span>I know guys that are average
pilots that are incredible judges, because they’ve done it before.<span style=""> </span>No one is as good a judge as the first flight
they see as their 500<sup>th</sup>.<span style=""> </span>Just
doesn’t happen.<span style=""> </span>If that was the
case, then why worry about which judges we send to the world team <span class="SpellE">trials<span class="GramE">..</span>why</span> not just give everyone
a written test and who ever scores the highest must be the best….you guys
know that isn’t true, that is why we have the software that evaluates
judges.<span style=""> </span>I would be interested to see the
results of that software with guys who are judging their first <span class="SpellE">nats</span> and see where they rank among judges.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Arch</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Black<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:01
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA
Mailing List<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats registration</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Since no one else will stick out their neck, I will. Mark is
100% correct. </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">The problem has nothing to do with class, intelligence or
ability, just experience. Not all, but most, intermediate pilots are simply so
new to pattern that they don't know everything to look for. This is why in most
cases FAI judges give out lower scores than intermediate judges. Not because
FAI judges are meaner or more conceited, but because they notice more. One
could argue that it doesn't matter as long as scores are consistent, but this
just isn't the case. When judges notice fewer things, like Mark's example
of the snap below, scores begin to rise and it's more difficult for pilots to distinguish
themselves. For example, pilot A and B both fly the 45 degree down snap
centering and stopping it perfectly, but pilot A didn't match the entry and
exit radius (very easy to miss for pilot and judge). If a judge does not notice
this then pilot B is penalized and though he performed better on paper he
wasn't able to distinguish himself. As a contestant this can be extremely
frustrating. </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Frankly, there's so much going on in our flights that it's
pretty much impossible to catch every altitude difference, centering
difference, radius difference, wind correction, etc. To expect they guy
that's just moved from Sportsman to do so is really unreasonable.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">So, am I against Intermediate or Sportsman judges at local
contests? No, they need the experience and judging can teach a pilot
so much! It's well worth the occasional round that may not be spot on in
judging to get these guys experience because in a few years THEY will be
writing this email. </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">If your an Intermediate or Sportsman pilot that's competed
in fewer than about 15 to 20 contests and this pisses you off all I can
say what every parent tells their kids, in a few years you'll understand,
there's really nothing to argue about. And though it seems so, I'm not trying
to be condescending.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Keith</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
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<div style="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com" title="atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Mark
Atwood</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">To:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Thursday, June 14,
2007 3:49 PM</span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;">Again, I simply have to agree to
disagree. Don’t really want a battle over it. My suggestion
would be to talk to someone that judges ice skating or as I mentioned before,
diving. An inexperienced judge, even knowing all the rules and
downgrades, can do little more than judge the landing. And that’s
what we get...Downward 45 snaps that are judged 99% on the exit of the snap
with little attention to the centering, entry and exit radius, etc.
But maybe more to the point, I know at least MY experience
has been, if I’m flying in high wind in front of a masters pilot, I pay a
LOT of attention to proper wind correction, knowing that even though the
maneuver looks wrong, it’s not, and will be judged appropriately because
that person can fly that same correction, and knows what it has to look like.
If I have an inexperienced judge...I focus on “smooth”, with
less wind correction, worrying less about proper ‘Track’ 45’s
than proper attitude 45s..etc. I think you’ll find a lot of
flyers do the same. Is it right?? Don’t know...but it’s
certainly the reality.<br>
<br>
I know I’m disparaging the intermediate judge...I don’t mean to do
that. Some are extremely good. It’s not the class you fly as
much as total experience and exposure. Dave Klein (father to Mike Klein,
former TOC pilot) never flew above the old Sportsman routine, but did so for
MANY years, and also watched Mike fly about 10,000 practice flights of FAI and
TOC patterns. He knew what he was looking for. I’m sure
there are intermediate flyers out there with equal skills in the chair.<br>
<br>
Judging schools are GREAT...a tremendous help. Even the poorest ones add
value. AND...yes, there are 15 year master’s pilots who are
probably bad judges. But on any given day, the odds are that
the experienced pilot is going to be a better judge than an inexperienced
pilot. Again...My opinion.<br>
<br>
So it goes back to Ron’s comment...that the CD’s job is to identify
which of the various pilots are “qualified”...<br>
<br>
-M<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/14/07 1:01 PM, "Fred Huber" <fhhuber@clearwire.net> wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;">there's a big difference in PLAYING a game of strategy and
OBSERVING the RESULTS of someone performing aerobatics.<br>
<br>
You don't even need to know all the rules to observe.<br>
<br>
You don't need to know the weight limit, maximum length or wingspan of the
model.<br>
<br>
You don't have to know how to compensate for wind in order to be able to see if
a vertical line got blown sideways and should be downgraded.<br>
<br>
Knowing the names of the pieces (maneuvers) and the shape of the board (limits
of the box) and the basic movements of the pieces (textbook description of
loop, roll, spin, snap...) will get you MUCH further judging than actually
playing.<br>
<br>
Even a judge at a chess tournament only needs to know how to recognize an
illegal move. They don't have to be able to beat the worst player in the
High School chess club.</span></font></p>
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----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Mark Atwood <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com"><mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA
Mailing List <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 14, 2007
10:44 AM<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats registration<br>
<br>
<br>
I’m going to simply agree to disagree. Experience in flying,
helps your experience in judging, IMHO.<br>
<br>
I’ll use a few analogies... Chess. I know
the rules. I’m even a decent player. My son is
10...also knows the rules, and for 10, plays ok. But when he looks
at the board, he sees 64 squares and a myriad of pieces. He has to
evaluate each piece in turn, taking considerable time to make his move.
By contrast, my experience allows me to set “groups” of
pieces as a single formation...a master player, sees the entire board as
a single position, and knows instantly the next move to make.<br>
<br>
One more quick comparison and I’ll try and related it to pattern
judging...lol<br>
<br>
Diving. How many of you have watched the olympic diving and seen
someone do a blinding 3 somersault half twist whatever, only to have the
announcer say...”He’s going to have to do a better job of
keeping his knees together and holding the tuck farther in the
rotation...blah blah blah” and think to yourself HUH?? Did they
actually SEE that?? And sure enough, in the slow mo...that’s
EXACTLY what happened. The commentator DIDN’T see it...but
they knew from the outcome WHAT MUST HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from
their own experience.<br>
<br>
Back to flying. Much of what we do is anticipate problems and fix
them. Some may disagree, but often, judging is know what must
have happened to get you into the bad place. That takes
experience...I think flying experience, though I suppose significant
judging experience could achieve the same. Bottom line...a sportsman/intermediate
pilot, unless they’ve been flying and judging that class for many
years, doesn’t have the experience necessary to judge FAI or
Masters Real Time. You have to see too much, too fast. You
can’t evaluate all the pieces on the board...you have to see the
board as a single position.<br>
<br>
My .02 cents.<br>
<br>
That being said...I fully agree that Intermediate pilots should be used
to judge Advanced...mixed with Masters pilots...thats the best way to
learn and you’ll still get a good judging result.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/14/07 10:57 AM, "Zapata, Lisandro Arturo"
<Lisandro.Zapata@rsandh.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
</span></font><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">IMHO<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
</span></font><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own
sequences, doesn't mean that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the
knowledge and the ability to judge correctly then you should use him to
judge FAI. Is common to think that a FAI pilot who has to know to fly
with all the rules in his mind must be a great judge but is not always
the case, they can be a terrible judge and a great flyer.<br>
I had seen FAI judges that they aren't even pilots, but they know the
rules.<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
</span></font><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Arturo<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Ron Van Putte<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 14, 2007
10:34 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA
Mailing List<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
My comments regarding not all Intermediate class pilots being qualified
to judge Advanced is from experience. A lot of Intermediate class
pilots just moved up from Sportsman and barely know how to fly their own
sequences, much less judge a class above them. They don't have the
basic knowledge of how to judge correctly. I've had Intermediate
pilots ask to be assigned to any other job than being a judge of Advanced
pilots because they didn't feel qualified. <br>
<br>
Further, like all programs, our judging certification program often
leaves a lot to be desired. Despite the efforts of a lot of people
like Don Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in a group
with a lot of other guys who all took the "test" together?
I've seen it happen far too often. Judge certification
classes run by Don Ramsey at the Nats take several hours. I've
watched some local classes take less than an hour and most of that was
taking the test. For experienced judges, just taking the test is
probably enough, because they have familiarized themselves with changes
to the rules and only need to take the test. However, I believe
that pilots who are inexperienced judges are being shortchanged at the
local level.<br>
<br>
Ron Van Putte<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:12 AM, John Ferrell wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
</span></font><font face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial;">I find the lack of confidence in the Judging Certification
Program to be an insult to those who put forth so much effort into
it.<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial;">There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who choose to
not waste their time knowing the AMA rule book. And there are many
pilots who are new to the Pattern Discipline that have read and
continue to read the Rule book like the Bible!<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial;">The class one flies is not a good indicator of their judging
qualities.<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial;">John Ferrell W8CCW<br>
"Life is easier if you learn to plow <br>
around the stumps"<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</a><br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Ron Van Putte <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net"><mailto:vanputte@cox.net></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA
Mailing List <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 13, 2007
7:44 PM<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats registration<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is true that SOME Intermediate pilots are qualified to judge
Advanced and are used if they are. The event director's job
is to discover who is qualified. That's why we pay him the
big $. <VBG> <br>
<br>
<br>
Ron Van Putte<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;">Provided that the Intermediate pilots aren't
qualified to judge Advanced, right? And since there are 20
Intermediate pilots they can help out with judging Advanced as well
- since everyone has to be certified.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/13/07, <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Ron Van Putte</span></b>
<vanputte@cox.net> wrote: <br>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
As a former Nats event director, I must point out that the Master
class pilots are used to judge the Advanced AND F3A pilots, thus
the problem with the number of Master class pilots. If you
use three judges on both Advanced lines, that's six judges each session.
Then, if there are four F3A lines, that's another twelve
judges. So, the first two sessions of Advanced and F3A
requires 36 Master class judges. Oh oh! we run out
of Master class judges on the third day if we only have 40 Master
class pilots and nobody volunteers to judge extra sessions.
That's why Dave Guerin's hair is turning gray/falling out.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ron Van Putte<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
And for one year there will actually be enough judges to judge
Masters - we've always struggled with not having enough F3A pilots
to fill the Masters judging pool.<br>
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On 6/13/07, <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Jim Woodward</span></b>
<Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com"><mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com></a>
> wrote: <br>
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</span></font><font color="navy" face="Verdana" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; color: navy;">Wow – Awesome! The
Masters pilots will get a taste of judging a highly attended FAI
class! J J J <br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
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</span></font><font color="navy" face="Verdana" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; color: navy;">Jim W.<br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
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</span></font><b><font face="Verdana" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Verdana" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org></a>
] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Derek
Koopowitz<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 13,
2007 12:41 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA
Mailing List ; dist7@nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats registration <br>
</span></font><font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
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</span></font>It looks like we have 115 total registered pilots for
the Nats this year (from the AMA website)...<br>
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</span></font>Intermediate - 20<br>
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</span></font>Advanced - 16<br>
<font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
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</span></font>Masters - 40<br>
<font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
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</span></font>FAI - 39<br>
<font face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana;"><br>
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</span></font>Those are excellent #'s and I'm hoping that there
will still be some late entries that will raise those numbers even
more.<br>
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