[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

Thu Jun 14 16:56:58 AKDT 2007

I will agree with Keith and Mark.best analogy I can give is like in sports,
guys say the "game slows down" after they figure things out..Same as in
pattern.  Things happen so quickly in the upper classes you have to be
watching at all times, and don't have time to think "did I just see that?"
on a nasty windy day I've watched my scores get hit because of wind
correction. One judge sees it correctly, but more times than not the one
with less experience notices the plane rather than and track and their brain
says "that can't be right.  You can sit through all the judging seminars in
the world, but until the knowledge is applied, it doesn't matter.  Doesn't
matter what class they fly.  I know guys that are average pilots that are
incredible judges, because they've done it before.  No one is as good a
judge as the first flight they see as their 500th.  Just doesn't happen.  If
that was the case, then why worry about which judges we send to the world
team trials..why not just give everyone a written test and who ever scores
the highest must be the best..you guys know that isn't true, that is why we
have the software that evaluates judges.  I would be interested to see the
results of that software with guys who are judging their first nats and see
where they rank among judges.

Arch

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Black
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:01 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

Since no one else will stick out their neck, I will. Mark is 100% correct. 

The problem has nothing to do with class, intelligence or ability, just
experience. Not all, but most, intermediate pilots are simply so new to
pattern that they don't know everything to look for. This is why in most
cases FAI judges give out lower scores than intermediate judges. Not because
FAI judges are meaner or more conceited, but because they notice more. One
could argue that it doesn't matter as long as scores are consistent, but
this just isn't the case. When judges notice fewer things, like Mark's
example of the snap below, scores begin to rise and it's more difficult for
pilots to distinguish themselves. For example, pilot A and B both fly the 45
degree down snap centering and stopping it perfectly, but pilot A didn't
match the entry and exit radius (very easy to miss for pilot and judge). If
a judge does not notice this then pilot B is penalized and though he
performed better on paper he wasn't able to distinguish himself. As a
contestant this can be extremely frustrating. 

Frankly, there's so much going on in our flights that it's pretty much
impossible to catch every altitude difference, centering difference, radius
difference, wind correction, etc. To expect they guy that's just moved from
Sportsman to do so is really unreasonable.

So, am I against Intermediate or Sportsman judges at local contests? No,
they need the experience and judging can teach a pilot so much! It's well
worth the occasional round that may not be spot on in judging to get these
guys experience because in a few years THEY will be writing this email. 

If your an Intermediate or Sportsman pilot that's competed in fewer than
about 15 to 20 contests and this pisses you off all I can say what every
parent tells their kids, in a few years you'll understand, there's really
nothing to argue about. And though it seems so, I'm not trying to be
condescending.

Keith

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mark <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>  Atwood 
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

Again, I simply have to agree to disagree.  Don't really want a battle over
it.  My suggestion would be to talk to someone that judges ice skating or as
I mentioned before, diving.  An inexperienced judge, even knowing all the
rules and downgrades, can do little more than judge the landing.  And that's
what we get...Downward 45 snaps that are judged 99% on the exit of the snap
with little attention to the centering, entry and exit radius, etc.    But
maybe more to the point, I know at least MY experience has been, if I'm
flying in high wind in front of a masters pilot, I pay a LOT of attention to
proper wind correction, knowing that even though the maneuver looks wrong,
it's not, and will be judged appropriately because that person can fly that
same correction, and knows what it has to look like.  If I have an
inexperienced judge...I focus on "smooth", with less wind correction,
worrying less about proper 'Track' 45's than proper attitude 45s..etc.   I
think you'll find a lot of flyers do the same.  Is it right??  Don't
know...but it's certainly the reality.

I know I'm disparaging the intermediate judge...I don't mean to do that.
Some are extremely good.  It's not the class you fly as much as total
experience and exposure.  Dave Klein (father to Mike Klein, former TOC
pilot) never flew above the old Sportsman routine, but did so for MANY
years, and also watched Mike fly about 10,000 practice flights of FAI and
TOC patterns.  He knew what he was looking for.   I'm sure there are
intermediate flyers out there with equal skills in the chair.

Judging schools are GREAT...a tremendous help.  Even the poorest ones add
value.  AND...yes, there are 15 year master's pilots who are probably bad
judges.    But on any given day, the odds are that the experienced pilot is
going to be a better judge than an inexperienced pilot.   Again...My
opinion.

So it goes back to Ron's comment...that the CD's job is to identify which of
the various pilots are "qualified"...

-M

On 6/14/07 1:01 PM, "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:
there's a big difference in PLAYING a game of strategy and OBSERVING the
RESULTS of someone performing aerobatics.

You don't even need to know all the rules to observe.

You don't need to know the weight limit, maximum length or wingspan of the
model.

You don't have to know how to compensate for wind in order to be able to see
if a vertical line got blown sideways and should be downgraded.

Knowing the names of the pieces (maneuvers) and the shape of the board
(limits of the box) and the basic movements of the pieces (textbook
description of loop, roll, spin, snap...) will get you MUCH further judging
than actually playing.

Even a judge at a chess tournament only needs to know how to recognize an
illegal move.  They don't have to be able to beat the worst player in the
High School chess club.

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  Mark  Atwood  <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:44  AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats  registration

I'm going to simply agree to disagree.   Experience in flying, helps your
experience in judging,  IMHO.

I'll use a few analogies...    Chess.  I know  the rules.  I'm even a decent
player.  My son is 10...also knows the  rules, and for 10, plays ok.  But
when he looks at the board, he sees 64  squares and a myriad of pieces.  He
has to evaluate each piece in turn,  taking considerable time to make his
move.  By contrast, my experience  allows me to set "groups" of pieces as a
single formation...a master player,  sees the entire board as a single
position, and knows instantly the next move  to make.

One more quick comparison and I'll try and related it to  pattern
judging...lol

Diving.  How many of you have watched the  olympic diving and seen someone
do a blinding 3 somersault half twist  whatever, only to have the announcer
say..."He's going to have to do a better  job of keeping his knees together
and holding the tuck farther in the  rotation...blah blah blah" and think to
yourself HUH?? Did they actually SEE  that??  And sure enough, in the slow
mo...that's EXACTLY what happened.   The commentator DIDN'T see it...but
they knew from the outcome WHAT MUST  HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from their
own experience.

Back to flying.   Much of what we do is anticipate problems and fix them.
Some  may disagree, but often, judging is know what must have happened to
get you  into the bad place.  That takes experience...I think flying
experience,  though I suppose significant judging experience could achieve
the same.   Bottom line...a sportsman/intermediate pilot, unless they've
been flying  and judging that class for many years, doesn't have the
experience necessary  to judge FAI or Masters Real Time.  You have to see
too much, too fast.   You can't evaluate all the pieces on the board...you
have to see the  board as a single position.

My .02 cents.

That being said...I  fully agree that Intermediate pilots should be used to
judge Advanced...mixed  with Masters pilots...thats the best way to learn
and you'll still get a good  judging result.

-Mark

On 6/14/07 10:57 AM, "Zapata, Lisandro  Arturo" <Lisandro.Zapata at rsandh.com>
wrote:

IMHO

Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own sequences,  doesn't mean
that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the knowledge and  the ability
to judge correctly then you should use him to judge FAI. Is  common to think
that a FAI pilot who has to know to fly with all the rules  in his mind must
be a great judge but is not always the case, they can be a  terrible judge
and a great flyer.
I had seen FAI judges that they aren't  even pilots, but they know the
rules.

Arturo

  _____  

From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5d>   On Behalf Of Ron Van
Putte
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007  10:34 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re:  [NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration

My comments regarding not all  Intermediate class pilots being qualified to
judge Advanced is from  experience.  A lot of Intermediate class pilots just
moved up from  Sportsman and barely know how to fly their own sequences,
much less judge a  class above them.  They don't have the basic knowledge of
how to judge  correctly.  I've had Intermediate pilots ask to be assigned to
any  other job than being a judge of Advanced pilots because they didn't
feel  qualified. 

Further, like all programs, our judging certification  program often leaves
a lot to be desired.  Despite the efforts of a lot  of people like Don
Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in  a group with a lot
of other guys who all took the "test" together?   I've seen it happen far
too often.   Judge certification  classes run by Don Ramsey at the Nats take
several hours.  I've watched  some local classes take less than an hour and
most of that was taking the  test.  For experienced judges, just taking the
test is probably enough,  because they have familiarized themselves with
changes to the rules and only  need to take the test.  However, I believe
that pilots who are  inexperienced judges are being shortchanged at the
local level.

Ron  Van Putte

On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:12 AM, John Ferrell  wrote:

I find the  lack of confidence in the Judging  Certification Program to be
an  insult to those who put forth so much effort  into  it.

There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who  choose to  not waste their
time knowing the AMA rule book. And there are many   pilots who are new to
the Pattern Discipline that have read and  continue to  read the Rule book
like the Bible!

The class one flies is not a good indicator of  their  judging qualities.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"Life is  easier  if you learn to plow 
       around   the stumps"
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----  

From:  Ron Van Putte  <mailto:vanputte at cox.net> <mailto:vanputte at cox.net>

To: NSRCA Mailing List  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>   

Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:44   PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats   registration

It is true that SOME   Intermediate pilots are qualified to judge Advanced
and are used  if they  are.  The event director's job is to discover who is
qualified.   That's why we pay him the big $.   <VBG>  

Ron Van  Putte

On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:51 PM,  Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Provided that the Intermediate pilots  aren't  qualified to judge Advanced,
right?  And since there  are 20  Intermediate pilots they can help out with
judging  Advanced as well -  since everyone has to be  certified.

On 6/13/07, Ron Van  Putte  <vanputte at cox.net>  wrote:  

As a former Nats event  director, I  must point out that the Master class
pilots are  used to judge the  Advanced AND F3A pilots, thus the problem
with the number of Master  class pilots.  If you use three  judges on both
Advanced lines,  that's six judges each session.   Then, if there are four
F3A lines,  that's another twelve  judges.  So, the first two sessions of
Advanced and F3A  requires 36 Master class judges.   Oh oh! we  run out  of
Master class judges on the third day if we only have 40   Master class
pilots and nobody volunteers to judge extra  sessions.   That's why Dave
Guerin's hair is turning  gray/falling out.  

Ron Van  Putte

On Jun 13,  2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz  wrote:

And for one year there will  actually be enough judges to judge  Masters -
we've always  struggled with not having enough F3A pilots to  fill the
Masters judging pool.

On  6/13/07, Jim  Woodward  <Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com
<mailto:Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com>
<mailto:Jim.Woodward at armorholdings.com>  > wrote:  

Wow -  Awesome!   The Masters pilots will get a taste of judging a   highly
attended FAI class!  J  J  J   

Jim   W.

  _____  

From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>  ]  On Behalf Of Derek
Koopowitz
Sent:  Wednesday, June 13, 2007  12:41 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List;  dist7 at nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]  Nats  registration 

It looks like we have 115 total  registered  pilots for the Nats this year
(from the AMA   website)...

Intermediate -  20

Advanced -  16

Masters -  40

FAI - 39

Those are excellent #'s and I'm hoping  that  there will still be some late
entries that will raise  those numbers  even more.

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