[NSRCA-discussion] SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?

Mon Jan 8 05:39:30 AKST 2007

Since when is constant speed a judging criteria?

--- fhhuber at clearwire.net wrote:

From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]	SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:54:15 -0600

these packs are $250 a set... Larger ($300 to $500 a set) brings model 
weight up requiring larger motor (lets spend another $250 to $400) and you 
end up at 1.5 KW before it will perform with the added weight.  So that is 
not an option.

CONSTANT SPEED is a judging criteria.  So unlimited vertical is a 
requirement for a vertical up-line.... unless you want to be downgraded for 
losing speed.

Stall turn you can slow down on the way up... you have to or its not a 
stall-turn, its a wingover = 0'd the maneuver.

If you have inadequate power for the up-line a tighter pull will kill speed 
due to  higher G forces... counterproductive.  And sticking 5 ft of up-line 
at 1/4 normal loop radius then pushing isn't going to score well even if 
line length is not a judging factor.

This is reality from actually flying the model.

Sure, the 14X6 will give some more static thrust compared to the 13X6.5... 
and lose airspeed... which equates to not handling wind.

It all adds up to... what WOULD work for the old Sportsman WON'T do the new 
sequence.

And I note you didn't comment on the glow power model's need for a change 
from a .60 2-stroke to a .91 4-stroke for MARGINAL ability to do the up-line 
when the .61 was JUST FINE for the old sequence.

These are planes I have actually flown.  Results that have been proven.

The new Sportsman sequence needs more power:weight (static thrust, to get 
vertical ascent capability as the main factor requiring more power) than the 
old sequence.

Someone's going to pop up saying that a .61 2-stroke can make more BHP than 
a .91 4-stroke...  Sure... if you want to run the 2-stroke spinning a small 
prop as fast as the engine will turn. Measure static thrust with props you'd 
actually fly Pattern with.  USEABLE power from the .91 is superior... and 
the 4-stroke with stock muffler weighs less than the 2- stroke with stock 
muffler.  The .91 wins.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Thompson" <mrandmrst at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: 
[NSRCA-discussion]SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?

> Fred,
>
> At the risk of seeming  argumentative, I don't entirely agree with your
> statements.  I'm relatively new to flying, especially Pattern, but there 
> are
> a few things I've learned in my 3 years of competition.
>
> In doing a stall turn, you want to run out of forward motion at the top, 
> not
> necessarily power.  It's possible you may be trying to extend your lines 
> too
> far.
>
> As for the vertical upline, carry more speed into the maneuver, tighten 
> your
> radii a little, shorten your line and you should have enough "oomph" to
> carry over the top.
>
> Again, not to be argumentative, however, a 1.5:1 power to weight would 
> give
> you unlimited vertical.  I would be extremely surprised if that kind of
> power would be necessary to carry a clean upline of  375 to 400 ft., which
> should be considered a very respectable elevation to make your transition 
> to
> level flight.
>
> As for the Quest, a very nice plane I might add, you might want to try a 
> 14
> x 6, if available.  The larger disk while maintaining the lower pitch, has
> always helped me increase my vertical abilities.  As for not being able to
> finish 2 sequences on 1 charge, larger packs are in order.
>
> Ken Thompson
> D6 Newbie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion]SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>
>
>> The stall turn you can run out of power at the top and still complete it.
>> (you NEED to run out of power at the top)
>>
>> The vertical up line you have to make a sustained straight up line at
>> constant speed and then have the "omph" left to make the same raius push
>> to
>> get back level as the radius used to pull into the up line.
>>
>> 1:1 power:weight would do the old Sportsman.  You need 1.5:1 to do that 
>> up
>> line and have the power to wind compensate.
>>
>> A Golberg Tiger 60 with a .61 2-stroke in the nose could to the old
>> Sportman
>> sequence. (with just problems due to wanting to roll with rudder input)
>> With a .91 4-stroke.. (which gives a significant improvement in up-lines)
>> It would be marginal at best.
>>
>> My Quest 3D e-powered was fine for the old Sportsman sequence using 
>> 13X6.5
>> at 800 watts.  For the new sequence I had to prop-up to 14X8, drawing 900
>> watts.  (fortunately the motor, battery and ESC are rated for that)  I
>> simply COULD NOT do the up line with the 13X6.5.
>> I put the E-powered Quest together specificly to fly sportsman, aiming at
>> 2
>> rounds per battery charge.  I now can't count on having the power to
>> complete the second round. (longer sequence AND more power required to do
>> it.)
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ken Thompson" <mrandmrst at comcast.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:03 PM
>> Subject: Re:
>> [NSRCA-discussion]SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>>
>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> Why is that vertical upline any harder to complete than the old stall
>>> turn?
>>> They both end at the same elevation...
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:20 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>>> SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I STILL think that the new Sportsman sequence is a mistake. Vertical
>>>> up-line
>>>> requires too much airplane performance and THAT is going to keep some
>>>> potential beginners from competing.
>>>>
>>>> FHH
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Mike Hester" <kerlock at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:06 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small
>>>> Models...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That is because people are looking fo a magic fix that I am utterly,
>>>>> totally, absolutely convinced does not exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also absolutely utterly convinced that messing with the rules too
>>>>> much
>>>>> over airframes in ANY class right now will ultimately have the 
>>>>> opposite
>>>>> effect of what people are trying to accomplish.
>>>>>
>>>>> You guys know as well as I do that a major part of the draw in pattern
>>>>> is
>>>>> the planes themselves to a lot of people. Not all, but a substantial
>>>>> number.
>>>>> In the sportsman class, if a guy has the ambition to secure a 2 meter
>>>>> plane,
>>>>> history shows (around here anyway) that you're MUCH more likely to see
>>>>> him
>>>>> next year in intermediate. The guy with the Kaos.....more likely, not.
>>>>> It's
>>>>> not because of cost, that is an excuse. Remove that excuse, they'll
>>>>> just
>>>>> find another. And now you've screwed the guy who WOULD have been 
>>>>> around
>>>>> next
>>>>> year....
>>>>>
>>>>> So let me get this straight....if you want to fly a 2 meter plane with
>>>>> a
>>>>> OS
>>>>> or YS160, you would have to fly advanced? Jeez, that's not a good 
>>>>> idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I started, my first contest, I knew I was going to do it. I
>>>>> scratch
>>>>> built a 2 meter plane and went for it. I wasn't the only one, most
>>>>> others
>>>>> in
>>>>> sportsman also had 2 meter planes. One actually had bought a world 
>>>>> team
>>>>> member's plane and was flying it....pretty well I might add...and I
>>>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>> say that even through masters and many years, that season was some of
>>>>> the
>>>>> best competition I have ever had. And we're still here. It produced
>>>>> myself,
>>>>> AC Glenn, Bryan Kennedy, Steve Homenda to name a few. Steve was the
>>>>> only
>>>>> one
>>>>> who wasn't flying a 2 meter plane, he was flying a 40 sized Arresti 
>>>>> and
>>>>> whipping everyone's tail with it. Oddly enough, he didn't get deterred
>>>>> by
>>>>> the big bad evil 2 meters.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no magic change to the rules that's going to bring newcomers
>>>>> in
>>>>> droves. You get creative, do what you can, and you make the best of
>>>>> what
>>>>> you
>>>>> get. We're not driving people away in droves like some people seem to
>>>>> think.
>>>>> If we are, it certainly isn't the rules regarding the size of the
>>>>> planes
>>>>> and
>>>>> cost. Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with a lot of the 
>>>>> negativity?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's just my opinion, I could be wrong....but I'm pretty sure I'm 
>>>>> not
>>>>> =)
>>>>>
>>>>> -M
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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