[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for thefutureofthePattern Event?
Fred Huber
fhhuber at clearwire.net
Thu Jan 4 20:44:04 AKST 2007
There's a check-in logistics nightmare for the CD's....
As is, we aren't having to be very picky about checking the planes being
flown at local Pattern events. (partly because we have a lot of honest
competitors... Partly because its so easy to catch an oversize/overweight
2-meter plane)
We don't have to check engine displacements... or see what fuel is being
used by who... we don't have to come up with some formula to figure out when
an E-power plane has too much power to be allowed in Sportsman.... (What
wattage motor REALLY equals a .60 2 stroke for flight performance?)
Tower/Hobbico just annonced a brushless electric RTF package deal TRAINER
thats as big as a Kadet LT.... We WILL be dealing with E-Power beginners,
and E-power in Sportsman more and more.
Any change you make to the size and weight limits is going to create mor
problems than will be solved.
Adding a power limit is a step backward, not forward. The Geni is out of
the bottle regarding power... you can't stuff that one back.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrien L Terrenoire" <amad2terry at juno.com>
To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Cc: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
thefutureofthePattern Event?
> How about a graduated increase in size??
> All Sportsmen entrys must be .60, or less. .90 four stroke, with maybe a
> weigh limit of 9 lb.
> Intermediate can use up to 1.20 4 stroke, or maybe a .90 2 stroke. 10 lb
> limit?
> In advance, let it open up.
> Some logic:
> Smaller, less costly planes in lower classes. The Sportsman planes can be
> used in Intermediate, and can be competitive for the first year or 2. A
> loarger plane can be built that wil take them into the Advance class for
> a year or so. Then the committment can be made to go "big time". All done
> on a gradual basis. Electronicss could be moved from plane to plane. If
> built light enough, the Int plane at 10 lb with a 1.20 could have a 1.40
> dropped in for the move to Adv.
>
> Terry T.
>
> On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 15:32:34 -0500 "Ed Miller" <edbon85 at charter.net>
> writes:
>> I think the fact there are a slew of 60 to 90 sized pattern arfs
>> readily
>> available at a sub $300 price tag will motivate newbies more than
>> the
>> cumbersome size issue. If or when a newbie gets hooked, the size
>> issue, or
>> lack there of, then is an added benefit. Problem is and we've all
>> been
>> there is the question "what do I need to compete with". There you
>> stand
>> touting all the good 60 to 90 size planes out there while trying to
>> hide
>> your guppy 2M plane of the week............
>> Ed M.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
>> futureofthePattern Event?
>>
>>
>> > Thanks Jay,
>> > That's why I posted to the list. Between the whole lot of us, we
>> can get
>> > some coverage.
>> > Maybe it begs the issue of how to find newbies in the first place
>> ( silly
>> > grin ) but you might start at the regular club meeting/field.
>> > Aren't there guys who watch and comment on your Pattern stuff, but
>> don't
>> > get into the event, in your local club?
>> > Ask them if they think the entry barrier would change for them or
>> someone
>> > like them. They may be closer to that prospective newbie than you
>> are.
>> > They may come back and say that the practice discipline is why
>> they will
>> > never do it,
>> > and others may come back and say, "Wow smaller/cheaper planes that
>> fit in
>> > my car and my apartmenmt workshop! I'm in!"
>> > I doubt you'll get such clear feedback, but you might get
>> something.
>> > later,
>> > Dean
>> >
>> >
>> > Dean Pappas
>> > Sr. Design Engineer
>> > Kodeos Communications
>> > 111 Corporate Blvd.
>> > South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>> > (908) 222-7817 phone
>> > (908) 222-2392 fax
>> > d.pappas at kodeos.com
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jay
>> > Marshall
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:58 PM
>> > To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
>> future
>> > ofthePattern Event?
>> >
>> >
>> > Dean, you bring up a very good point. Most of us are seeped in the
>> 2m
>> > venue.
>> > We should really be talking to prospective new flyers. How do we
>> do that?
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> Dean Pappas
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:09 PM
>> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
>> future of
>> > thePattern Event?
>> >
>> > Hi Anthony,
>> > Hi All,
>> > Forget the implementational details for now. Stop trying to
>> Engineer it,
>> > we
>> > are doing Marketting.
>> > If it helps to get in the right frame of mind, take a few stiff
>> drinks and
>> > bang your head on the workbench about ten times.
>> > If we decide that it's worthwhile, then there are a zillion ways
>> to make
>> > the
>> > transition and to also grandfather existing planes for several
>> years.
>> > That's not the issue, at least not for now.
>> >
>> > Changing the shape of the event: just for "something to do" would
>> be an
>> > awful waste of energy and needless turmoil.
>> > We all dislike wasted energy, and I hope that we all agree that
>> needless
>> > turmoil is to be avoided.
>> > I really want to focus on the basic question. Will making Pattern
>> ships
>> > smaller lead to increased future participation in the event?
>> > If the answer isn't YES, then the grief probably ain't worth it.
>> >
>> > So far, I am hearing a mixed bag, and a whole lot of talk about
>> the
>> > compromises we have all made when buying a vehicle.
>> > I am there with you. (stow 'n go Grand caravan ... love it)
>> > But the choir is already saved, and you all already fly Pattern.
>> > Please go pester the newbies and the folks that you think are
>> potential
>> > Pattern newbies.
>> > Will this make a difference as to whether they take the plunge?
>> > Maybe the answer is that future participation won't be improved.
>> >
>> > After we figure out whether future participation will or will not
>> be
>> > helped,
>> > then we can figure out what those of us already in the event would
>> like.
>> > That is an entirely separate question.
>> >
>> > thanks for the help,
>> > Dean
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dean Pappas
>> > Sr. Design Engineer
>> > Kodeos Communications
>> > 111 Corporate Blvd.
>> > South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>> > (908) 222-7817 phone
>> > (908) 222-2392 fax
>> > d.pappas at kodeos.com
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
>> Anthony
>> > Romano
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:31 AM
>> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models bonus!?
>> >
>> >
>> > Ok I will try it again. What about a 10 % score bonus for a 1.7m
>> model?
>> > 1.5m
>> >
>> > 20%? Encourage the newbie or the guy on a budget and take away the
>>
>> > perceived
>> >
>> > advantage without causing obsolescence on current equipment.
>> > Remember the biplane bonus at the TOC? Wasn't there a size bonus
>> as well
>> > waaayyy back?
>> >
>> > Maybe it needs to be limited to sportsman or intermediate maybe
>> not.
>> >
>> > Anthony
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "Ed Miller" <edbon85 at charter.net>
>> >>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>> >>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 08:12:11 -0500
>> >>
>> >>Yes, that is known as the BPA, Ballistic Pattern Association. So
>> soon
>> >>there
>> >>will be 3 pattern venues to split the already dwindling pattern
>> base :).
>> >>Ed M.
>> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >>From: "Earl Haury" <ehaury at houston.rr.com>
>> >>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:40 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Interesting indeed - a local club is considering holding a "ole
>> fashion"
>> >>pattern contest this fall. The plan is to fly pre-turnaround
>> pattern. Not
>> >>sure exactly what the rules will be - but not SPA, as the intent
>> is to
>> >>allow
>> >>'70's - '80's airplanes with piped engines & retracts (one member
>>
>> >>mentioned
>> >>a Brushfire with piped Jett 90).
>> >>
>> >>I'm very comfortable with pattern as it is - however, there is a
>> gap
>> >>between
>> >>current pattern and SPA that many seem interested in.
>> >>
>> >>Earl
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Koenig, Tom
>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:16 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Guys-there are many of us that reminisce about the 'simpler'
>> days of
>> >> the
>> >>60 size models, even down here!
>> >>
>> >> I mentioned recently to some locals that I may hold a comp
>> similar to
>> >>your
>> >>SPA stuff. I considered just allowing 60 size models as a max,
>> never mind
>> >>all the vintage rules etc.....I was SWAMPED with interest. There
>> were all
>> >>sorts of ex pattern pilots ready to show up. I think I'd have had
>> 40 -50
>> sible entries!!!
>> >>
>> >> Not trying to stir things up-but it is interesting
>> nonetheless.
>> >>
>> >> Tom
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> >>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron
>> Lockhart
>> >> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:31 AM
>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yea, smaller has a number of advantages.
>> >> A reduction in money, time, hassle factor, etc., of models
>> is a
>> >>thought
>> >>toward increased participation.
>> >> (Yea, I know the established pilots, and new pilots, are
>> allowed to
>> >>fly
>> >>smaller models right now. But we have a
>> >> lot of history that shows Dean's comment "Given that
>> everyone will
>> >>build or buy up to the maximum size limit" is true.
>> >> How does that Dixie thing go?....<G>
>> >>
>> >> Ron Lockhart
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Dean Pappas
>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:51 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi John,
>> >> A year or so ago, I puit together an Excelleron 90 for a
>> review and
>> >>eventual sale to a newbie.
>> >> Boy! Was it nice to drop a plane into the minivan in one
>> piece!
>> >> It was almost as good as when a Phoenix 8 would fit into
>> the back
>> >> of
>> >
>> >>a
>> >>hatchback Camaro in one piece.
>> >>
>> >> Given that everyone will build or buy up to the maximum
>> size limit,
>> >> is there a good enough reason to push on the rules bodies
>> to
>> >>legislate
>> >>Pattern plane sizes back down?
>> >> How about 1.6 or 1.7 meters square?
>> >> Will this affect cost and complexity enough to have a
>> beneficial
>> >>effect on participation?
>> >> Or am I just whistling Dixie?
>> >>
>> >> later,
>> >> Dean
>> >> Dean Pappas
>> >> Sr. Design Engineer
>> >> Kodeos Communications
>> >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
>> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>> >> (908) 222-7817 phone
>> >> (908) 222-2392 fax
>> >> d.pappas at kodeos.com
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> >>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John
>> Ferrell
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:07 PM
>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> There seems to be a growing trend toward smaller
>> airplanes among
>> >> a
>> >>lot of folks. I sure am enjoying the 90 size Boxer I bought from
>> Ed Miller
>> >>last summer. Less hassle to transport, assemble and fly. That
>> means I can
>> >>fly more!
>> >>
>> >> John Ferrell W8CCW
>> >> "My Competition is not my enemy"
>> >> http://DixieNC.US
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
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