[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?

Adrien L Terrenoire amad2terry at juno.com
Thu Aug 16 18:14:17 AKDT 2007


I got my impression from QuiQue S. when talking to him at the NATs a few
years ago.

Terry T.

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:43:05 -0600 John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net>
writes:
Terry, 

I really don't understand the relevance of the "controlling body". Either
we aim our top-notch fliers at the world level competition or we withdraw
intoo our own little world, allowing the US team to become an
afterthought.

I expect you are right about the smaller countries of the world not
having a setup of classes but I suspect you have not researched the
statement. The information I could find quickly indicates that Great
Britain, Australia and Canada have lower classes. I tried to figure out
what the French are doing but failed, as usual. I believe most of the
countries likely to do well and field a full team at the Worlds will have
a scheme to delveop aerobatic pilots.

The national classes in the other countries appear to be aimed at FAI.
Clearly the Australian system is. There you have to earn promotion to the
next class by getting a certain percentage of the FAI pilot raw score
national average. Hardly sounds like they could (or would want to)
eleminate FAI from their aerobatic schedules. Note also that you  have to
earn your way to the next class. There is no way to personally decide you
are ready for the next class and move up. Promotion is something all
aerobatic pilots in Australia aspire to, especially the prestige and
honor in being promoted to FAI. 
The national body will also relegate you back down to the next lower
class if you fail to meet a minimum standard of attendance or
performance.

Lastly, Masters is not, by definition, a destination class. It is, by the
current rule, a destination class. This has not always been the case. In
the old days, as we are both old enough to remember, Masters was the FAI
schedule.

Hopefully I will get back to the triplle cities to visit  in the next few
years. It would be good to see you and Bob Noll again.

John


Adrien L Terrenoire wrote: 
Fred: I don't know what part of "FAI and AMA are not controlled by the
same body" you do not understand!

In many smaller countries around the world FAI is the ONLY class flown in
competition. They have NO national coverning body to administer any
"lower" classes.

In the US, Canada, and I guess Australia, we have established National
classes. They have virtually nothing to do with FAI. A CD could run a
contest without including FAI. If that were the case, any FAI pilot could
enter the Masters class. Truth be known, any FAI flier can do that now.

I do not know what class you are flying, but if you are flying Masters,
and want to be on top...work harder, don't complain that someone is
"sandbagging" in a class that by definition IS a destination class.

Terry T.


On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:08:52 -0500 "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
writes:
If there is no support for the forcing move up from Master to FAI

There can be no valid argument to force anyone to ever move up from any
class.

Either the rules should have a consistant progression system... or no
system to make the guy who likes taking st place at advanced home every
contest for 30 years.  

Tell Chip Hyde to fly Masters... Tell Todd Blose to fly Intermediate,
Have Jason fly Advanced... and make the contest a joke.

Drive all the lower level competitors out of the sport.

It'll be great for Pattern.  
We'll get hundreds of new members wanting to be able to say: 
"I flew in Pattern and got a 100... to MattK's 1000..... he flew
Sportsman this time because he didn't want to look like a fool compared
to someone else."


Be consistant... or be shown the way the inconsistancy can be followed
through on.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: rcmaster199 at aol.com 
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?


Masters needs it???

Move up to where?? Alaska??

Ohhhh....drop out when you reach your allotted points, that's what you
mean. OKAY then... I see the logic

MattK



-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Huber <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 7:16 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?


OK... its an AMA class

ALL OTHER AMA CLASSES HAVE THE FORCED MOVE UP POINT SYSTEM.

Masters needs it.

And... there's no real support for allowing someone to willy-nilly move
between FAI and other classes whenever they want... 
(no one does... because no one wants to practise FAI and any other class
at the same time.. the lower class would take too much time from the FAI
practice)

Rules need to be consistent... Or someone will notice that they aren't.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Taylor 
To: NSRCA Mailing List 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?


FAI is class 406, an AMA Class, Just checked the rule book.

 http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf

Fred Huber <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:
In that case... there's no support for offering FAI class at an AMA
sanctioned event.  

Its not an AMA class.  Have a seperate contest.

That worm turns 2 ways.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ken Thompson 
To: NSRCA Mailing List 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?


The bottom line is this...the AMA has 4 classes, the top level being
Masters.  FAI is an international F3A class, not a AMA class..."in my
opinion" there can never be a mandatory progression from an AMA SIG class
to an international class.

As for your question, my logic should, and does, apply to every class
controlled by the AMA...which is what I'm talking about.

Ken
----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Gayer 
To: NSRCA Mailing List 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?


Why does this apply to every class except Masters?? 
Aren't there better flyers available to learn from in FAI?  :)
John

Ken Thompson wrote: 
Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!!!    You will only get better if you
do one of two things,    1.  Fly against people that are better than you,
obviously paying attention   to their flights.    2.  Have a pilot that
is better than you willing to coach you.    I've been blessed with having
both...any contest I go to in D6 will have   pilots that are better  than
I am, and I have Archie as a coach to help me through the little  
things.    BTW:  I fully expect to be flying Masters in 6 or 7 years. 
That will put me   at 54 or 55 years old when I make the move.   
Personally I have no desire to go to contests and come in 1st or 2nd on a
  regular basis, AND stay in that  class...it simply won't make me a
better pilot.  My goal is to
 get better   every year, with hard work and patience,  it will happen.  
 Ken      ----- Original Message -----   From: <rcpattern at stx.rr.com> 
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  Sent:
Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:55 PM  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More
flexibility in class selection?        
I take exception to this.  FAI and Masters are not related.  I have  been
flying masters several years, finishing as high as second this  year at
the NATS.  Yes, I'm coming back next year in Masters.  I have  a goal of
winning the nats before I move up.  I can be realistic...at  some point
with enough practice I might be able to crack the finals in  FAI at the
NATS, but I'm smart enough to know that realistically  winning FAI isnt
going to happen.  I
 would also argue that the guys  that have been flying masters for years,
just raise the bar.  I know  in different areas I've flown around the
country, these are the guys  that make guys fly better.  Show up in
District 6 sometime, and fly  Masters...you'll definitely get better.  6
of the top 10 at the NATS  were D6.  The means, guy that finished in the
top 10 at the NATS in  what is probably top to bottom the most
competitive class have trouble  getting wood at a local contest.  I can
promise you though, the guys  that fly here have greatly  improved their
flying than they would have in other parts of the  country.  Glen has set
the bar here for a while, and I know the other  guys are pushing to catch
him, and if you look now at local contest  scores, it is getting closer. 
At any given time down here in D6, I'd  say 6 or 7 guys can take a round
in masters.  Now that makes it fun. I  know when I was flying in D4 last
year.  Every contest I went to, was  Verne K, and
 Steve Miller....I knew I'd better put up great flights  every flight and
this makes you a better pilot.  I think you should  try moving up...take
a year of the low 900's, and then see where you  are the following year. 
I bet you start moving up and before you know  it you would be right
there in the mix.  This is a competitive  activity and the only way you
improve is flying against people who are  better than you.    Arch     
----- Original Message -----  From: John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> 
Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:41 pm  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
More flexibility in class selection?  To: NSRCA Mailing List
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>        
Ron,  I take exception to those rules. There should be only one 
destination  class. Why shouldn't
 there be a mandatory move from Masters to  F3A? They  are just two
patterns with a natural progression as there is  between  Advanced and
Masters.  Parking and sandbagging is a mental state, not a rules
violation.  john    Ron Van Putte wrote:          
The Master class is the top AMA class and there is no mandatory          
move        
from the Master class to F3A, so how can there be "parkers" or 
"sandbaggers"?    Ron Van Putte    On Aug 15, 2007, at 2:10 PM, John
Gayer wrote:            
how about changing the AMA advancemant rule and keep it very            
simple?>> Your first contest of the year will determine your class  for
the        
year. You may go up one class at any time during
 the year but            
may not        
go back down during the year. At the start of the next year you          
 
may        
drop back one class at your option, stay where you are or go up          
 
a class.        
This is simple enough that your fellow competitiors will know            
if you        
are following the rules. It will also be up to your fellow  competitiors
to insure that you are not sandbagging.  I also feel strongly that
sandbagging in Masters should not be  allowed. If you disregard
Sportsman, then
 half of the classes            
allow        
parking. Obviously, F3A has to be a parking lot but I see no            
reason        
to allow this behavior in Masters. As a competant advanced            
pilot of        
somewhat advanced years, I have very little interest in moving           

to        
Masters in order to spend the rest of my pattern years trying            
to        
break 900 against the
 parkers.  I fail to see the logic in having two destination classes.    
       
Shouldn't        
we all aspire to progress to FAI? The current Masters schedule           

is        
designed as a stepping stone to Masters. Let's use it that way.    John
Gayer  NSRCA 632      BUDDYonRC at aol.com wrote:              
There was a proposal on the last rules cycle that would allow            
 
a        
person to move up and test his ability then move back if he             
 
had not        
attained the skills required for the higher class.  I              
personally        
think it is a good idea and I also see no need for the point             

system        
like someone said if someone abuses the privilege we can              
solicit        
Earl and four other guys his size to take him behind the barn            

 
and        
splain to him why he will be moving up. I believe peer              
pressure is        
all the control we need.  I think this is worth a try.  For those who
have the ability and desire to achieve a spot at              
the        
top I don't see that we have a problem.  Buddy       
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