[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility inclassselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Ken Thompson mrandmrst at comcast.net
Thu Aug 16 16:43:19 AKDT 2007


Very real, Vince.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: vicenterc at comcast.net 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List ; 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
  Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility inclassselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season


  Is this a joke or it is a real guy? 

  --
  Vicente "Vince" Bortone

    -------------- Original message -------------- 
    From: "Claude Weimer" <cweimer at tconl.com> 

    > Man, a volatile guy. 
    > 
    > -----Original Message----- 
    > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
    > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber 
    > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:41 PM 
    > To: NSRCA Mailing List 
    > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in 
    > classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season 
    > 
    > Be elitist 
    > 
    > Masters know everything 
    > 
    > no one else's opinions are worth a crap 
    > 
    > Doesn't matter that I;ve been flying RC 30 years 
    > 
    > Doesn't matter that I've been building with balsa since I was 7 and my FIRST 
    > 
    > HOME DESIGNED PLANE flew just fine... when I was 10 
    > > I know nothing 
    > 
    > I'm "Just a Sportsman" 
    > 
    > bye 
    > 
    > Cancel my NSRCA membership 
    > 
    > I won't be at the nexst contest 
    > 
    > I won't be helping at the next local contest (which I have been doing every 
    > year I have been in the local club.) 
    > 
    > I won't support Pattern any more in any way. 
    > 
    > And... I'll have my name pulled from this e-mail list before you can 
    > answer... AND DON'T e-mail "back channel. 
    > 
    > 
    > ----- Original Message ----- 
    > From: "Matthew Frederick" 
    > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27 PM 
    > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
    > selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season 
    > 
    > 
    > > Glen didn't write that, George did. George is an intermediate pilot. He is 
    &! gt; > ; in no way an elitist, but he is just as offended by the sandbagging 
    > > comment 
    > > as everyone else who knows Arch and Glen. It has nothing to do with 
    > > "political correctness" like Fred tried to say. It has more to do with how 
    > > difficult it is to get your point across if you're trying to speak through 
    > 
    > > a 
    > > size 11 Nike. (Foot in mouth for those having trouble with that). 
    > > 
    > > Matt 
    > > ----- Original Message ----- 
    > > From: "Pete Cosky" 
    > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM 
    > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
    > > selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season 
    > > 
    > > 
    > >> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie 
    > >> &g! t;Sport sman's 
    > >>>comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. < 
    > >> 
    > >> Glen, 
    > >> 
    > >> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause 
    > >> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a 
    > >> person 
    > >> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their 
    > >> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his 
    > >> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class. 
    > >> 
    > >> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but 
    > >> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above 
    > >> does 
    > >> nothing to help the sport. 
    > >> 
    > >> Just my opinion. 
    > >> 
    > >> Pete 
    > &! gt;> 
    > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
    > >> From: 
    > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00 
    > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> 
    > >> Personal dilemma, what to do next season 
    > >> 
    > >> 
    > >>> Glen, 
    > >>> 
    > >>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie 
    > >>> Sportsman's 
    > >>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. I 
    > >>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in 
    > >>> Masters 
    > >>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you. 
    > >>> 
    > >>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because > >>> I 
    > >>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people 
    > >>> trying 
    > >>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Masters is the top of the AMA 
    > >>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition. There isn't a real 
    > >>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6 
    > >>> this 
    > >>> year. So lets get over this and get on with having fun! 
    > >>> 
    > >>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against that 
    > >>> have a problem with you defending your title! If you want to go FAI, 
    > >>> then 
    > >>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly 
    > >>> Masters AND FAI at different contests. 
    > >>> 
    > >>> On a different note, if your cruise gets raine! d out b y the storms headed 
    > >>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest! 
    > >>> 
    > >>> George 
    > >>> 
    > >>> ---- Glen Watson wrote: 
    > >>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with 
    > >>>> emotionally based comments. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs and 
    > >>>> lows 
    > >>>> on what I should do next. The rules state that I can return to the 
    > >>>> NATS 
    > >>>> and 
    > >>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire. I'm asking myself is 
    > >>>> that 
    > >>>> such a bad thing. Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would 
    > >>>> be. 
    > >>>>! I'm wo ndering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking what's 
    > >>>> good 
    > >>>> for the pattern community as a whole? 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this 
    > >>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner. Second is to be as 
    > >>>> competitive as I can. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories: 
    > >>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have 
    > >>>> fun 
    > >>>> and 
    > >>>> be competitive in this sport. 
    > >>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote 
    > >>>> their 
    > >>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>&g! t;> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI? The short 
    > >>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle of 
    > >>>> the 
    > >>>> pack FAI competitor? IMHO top level Masters competitors should have 
    > >>>> influence on equipments trends. Here in the US we are fortunate to 
    > >>>> have 
    > >>>> a 
    > >>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from having 
    > >>>> more 
    > >>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices. From my vantage 
    > >>>> point 
    > >>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most 
    > >>>> influence 
    > >>>> over the market. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI 
    >! >&g t;>> competitors 
    > >>>> use 
    > >>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds. I feel there is 
    > >>>> an 
    > >>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar 
    > >>>> effect. 
    > >>>> A 
    > >>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford. 
    > >>>> Many 
    > >>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the 
    > >>>> US 
    > >>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs especially 
    > >>>> at 
    > >>>> the Masters level. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to 
    > >>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger 
    > &g! t;>& gt;> but 
    > >>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> ~Glen 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> -----Original Message----- 
    > >>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike 
    > >>>> Hester 
    > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM 
    > >>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
    > >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call 
    > >>>> "flying" 
    > >>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> You just blatantly called Arch! Staffo rd a "sandbagger" because he said 
    > >>>> his 
    > >>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may 
    > >>>> not 
    > >>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill, 
    > >>>> the 
    > >>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's certainly 
    > >>>> capable of it. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and whether 
    > >>>> you 
    > >>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters 
    > >>>> pilot. 
    > >>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and 
    > >>>> paying 
    > >>>> his 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, bu! t to fl y FAI on a national 
    > >>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You 
    > >>>> can't 
    > >>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition, 
    > >>>> not 
    > >>>> at 
    > >>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the 
    > >>>> manuevers 
    > >>>> are different, etc. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100% 
    > >>>> positive 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a 
    > >>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots complaining 
    > >>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they 
    > >>>> like 
    > >! ;>&g t;> them as people. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that. 
    > >>>> I'd 
    > >>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the 
    > >>>> same 
    > >>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is 
    > >>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier 
    > >>>> own 
    > >>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that 
    > >>>> decision. 
    > >>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have 
    > >>>> to 
    > >>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work. 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> -Mike 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
    > >&g! t;>& gt; From: "Fred Huber" 
    > >>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM 
    > >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> > Well... 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class 
    > >>>> > until 
    > >>>> > he 
    > >>>> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won? Out 
    > >>>> > of 
    > >>>> > how 
    > >>>> > many who have competed? 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy. 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> ! > Yo u say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets. 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters wants 
    > >>>> > to 
    > >>>> > be 
    > >>>> > the best too. Most will NEVER make it. 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport... 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > Reality is not politically correct. 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same trophy: 
    > >>>> > "Participant" 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
    > >>>> > From: "Matthew Frederick" 
    > >>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM 
    > >>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> >> Fred, 
    > >>>> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning 
    > >>>> >> the 
    > >>>> >> Nats 
    > >>>> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats 
    > >>>> >> finish 
    > >>>> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the 
    > >>>> >> nation. 
    > >>>> >> He 
    > >>>> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal goal 
    > >>>> >> he 
    > >>>> >> has 
    > >>>> >>! set an d well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and 
    > >>>> >> knowing 
    > >>>> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly 
    > >>>> >> calling 
    > >>>> >> him 
    > >>>> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6 
    > >>>> >> who 
    > >>>> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a 
    > >>>> >> regular 
    > >>>> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in 
    > >>>> >> Masters 
    > >>>> >> other 
    > >>>> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA 
    > >>>> >> Pattern. 
    > >>>> >> I 
    > >>>> >> completely agree ! with th e point someone else made that stated we 
    > >>>> >> should 
    > >>>> >> not 
    > >>>> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control 
    > >>>> >> of 
    > >>>> >> the 
    > >>>> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me 
    > >>>> >> to 
    > >>>> >> move 
    > >>>> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full 
    > >>>> >> turnaround 
    > >>>> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many 
    > >>>> >> maneuvers 
    > >>>> >> that, 
    > >>>> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally 
    > >>>> >> consider 
    > >>>> >> to 
    &g! t; > >>> >> be 
    > >>>> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch. 
    > >>>> >> 
    > >>>> >> Matt 
    > >>>> >> 
    > >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
    > >>>> >> From: "Fred Huber" 
    > >>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > >>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM 
    > >>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? 
    > >>>> >> 
    > >>>> >> 
    > >>>> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win... I don't ever 
    > >>>> >>> expect 
    > >>>> >>> to 
    > >>>> >>> accumulate the points needed to force adv! ancemen t from Sportsman. 
    > >>>> >>> The 
    > >>>> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there. 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2 
    > >>>> >>> others 
    > >>>> >>> flying. I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to be 
    > >>>> >>> around 
    > >>>> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes. 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have 
    > >>>> >>> learned 
    > >>>> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place 
    > >>>> >>> DEAD 
    > >>>> >>> LAST 
    > >>>> >>>! FOREVE R. I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too. 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being 
    > >>>> >>> competitive 
    > >>>> >>> if 
    > >>>> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so 
    > >>>> >>> they 
    > >>>> >>> can 
    > >>>> >>> always win... 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with the 
    > >>>> >>> point 
    > >>>> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger. (not even 
    > >>>> >>> bothering 
    > >>>> >>> to 
    > >>>> >>> look up who made the referenced post...) ! 
    > ; >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2 
    > >>>> >>> others 
    > >>>> >>> flying. 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair. 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier 
    > >>>> >>> personal 
    > >>>> >>> agendas. 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
    > >>>> >>> From: 
    > >>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
    > >>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM 
    > >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRC! A-discu ssion] More flexibility in class 
    > >>>> >>> selection? 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>>>I know Glen. 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really 
    > >>>> >>>> just 
    > >>>> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a 
    > >>>> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping stone 
    > >>>> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by 
    > >>>> >>>> itself 
    > >>>> >>>> (which it currently is). 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whe! reby a pilot who does 
    > >>>> >>>> not 
    > >>>> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally 
    > >>>> >>>> like 
    > >>>> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to 
    > >>>> >>>> Masters 
    > >>>> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to achieve 
    > >>>> >>>> an 
    > >>>> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the 
    > >>>> >>>> option 
    > >>>> >>>> of 
    > >>>> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for 
    > >>>> >>>> example only. 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> I gue! ss my b iggest problem with these threads, is they give me a 
    > >>>> >>>> big 
    > >>>> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually 
    > >>>> >>>> about 
    > >>>> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and if 
    > >>>> >>>> you 
    > >>>> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it 
    > >>>> >>>> better 
    > >>>> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play 
    > >>>> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself. 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st 
    > >>>> >>>> time. 
    > >>>! ;> & gt;>>> (just ask my wife) 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> -Doug 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
    > >>>> >>>> From: Glen Watson 
    > >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm 
    > >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
    > >>>> >>>> selection? 
    > >>>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters... 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook... 
    > >>>> &! gt;> >>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the 
    > >>>> >>>>> Masters 
    > >>>> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI 
    > >>>> >>>>> class at any 
    > >>>> >>>>> contest but not both. 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> ~Glen 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- 
    > >>>> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of 
    > >>>> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com 
    > >>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM! 
    &g t; >>>> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
    > >>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
    > >>>> >>>>> selection? 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet 
    > >>>> >>>>> again) 
    > >>>> >>>> is: 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not? 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> -Doug 
    > >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-di! scussio n at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > >>>> >>>>> 
    > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > >>>> >>>> 
    > >>>> >>! >> ; 
    > >>>> >>>> 
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    > >>>> >>> 
    > >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
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    > >>>> >> 
    >! ; >& gt;>> >> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
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    > >>>> > 
    > >>>> > _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> > NSRCA-discuss! ion mai ling list 
    > >>>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > >>>> 
    > >>>> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
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    > >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
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    > >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > >>> 
    > >>> _______________________________________________ 
    > >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >>> http://lis! ts.nsrc a.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > >>> 
    > >> 
    > >> 
    > >> _______________________________________________ 
    > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
    > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
    > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
    > > 
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    > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
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