[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility inclassselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
Ken Thompson
mrandmrst at comcast.net
Thu Aug 16 16:43:19 AKDT 2007
Very real, Vince.
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List ; 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility inclassselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
Is this a joke or it is a real guy?
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Claude Weimer" <cweimer at tconl.com>
> Man, a volatile guy.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:41 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in
> classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
> Be elitist
>
> Masters know everything
>
> no one else's opinions are worth a crap
>
> Doesn't matter that I;ve been flying RC 30 years
>
> Doesn't matter that I've been building with balsa since I was 7 and my FIRST
>
> HOME DESIGNED PLANE flew just fine... when I was 10
> > I know nothing
>
> I'm "Just a Sportsman"
>
> bye
>
> Cancel my NSRCA membership
>
> I won't be at the nexst contest
>
> I won't be helping at the next local contest (which I have been doing every
> year I have been in the local club.)
>
> I won't support Pattern any more in any way.
>
> And... I'll have my name pulled from this e-mail list before you can
> answer... AND DON'T e-mail "back channel.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew Frederick"
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
> > Glen didn't write that, George did. George is an intermediate pilot. He is
&! gt; > ; in no way an elitist, but he is just as offended by the sandbagging
> > comment
> > as everyone else who knows Arch and Glen. It has nothing to do with
> > "political correctness" like Fred tried to say. It has more to do with how
> > difficult it is to get your point across if you're trying to speak through
>
> > a
> > size 11 Nike. (Foot in mouth for those having trouble with that).
> >
> > Matt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pete Cosky"
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> > selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
> >
> >
> >> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
> >> &g! t;Sport sman's
> >>>comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
> >>
> >> Glen,
> >>
> >> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause
> >> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a
> >> person
> >> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
> >> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his
> >> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
> >>
> >> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but
> >> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above
> >> does
> >> nothing to help the sport.
> >>
> >> Just my opinion.
> >>
> >> Pete
> &! gt;>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From:
> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
> >> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
> >>
> >>
> >>> Glen,
> >>>
> >>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
> >>> Sportsman's
> >>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. I
> >>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in
> >>> Masters
> >>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
> >>>
> >>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because > >>> I
> >>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people
> >>> trying
> >>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Masters is the top of the AMA
> >>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition. There isn't a real
> >>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6
> >>> this
> >>> year. So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
> >>>
> >>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against that
> >>> have a problem with you defending your title! If you want to go FAI,
> >>> then
> >>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly
> >>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
> >>>
> >>> On a different note, if your cruise gets raine! d out b y the storms headed
> >>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest!
> >>>
> >>> George
> >>>
> >>> ---- Glen Watson wrote:
> >>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with
> >>>> emotionally based comments.
> >>>>
> >>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs and
> >>>> lows
> >>>> on what I should do next. The rules state that I can return to the
> >>>> NATS
> >>>> and
> >>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire. I'm asking myself is
> >>>> that
> >>>> such a bad thing. Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would
> >>>> be.
> >>>>! I'm wo ndering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking what's
> >>>> good
> >>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
> >>>>
> >>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this
> >>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner. Second is to be as
> >>>> competitive as I can.
> >>>>
> >>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
> >>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have
> >>>> fun
> >>>> and
> >>>> be competitive in this sport.
> >>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote
> >>>> their
> >>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
> >>>>
> >>&g! t;> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI? The short
> >>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle of
> >>>> the
> >>>> pack FAI competitor? IMHO top level Masters competitors should have
> >>>> influence on equipments trends. Here in the US we are fortunate to
> >>>> have
> >>>> a
> >>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from having
> >>>> more
> >>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices. From my vantage
> >>>> point
> >>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
> >>>> influence
> >>>> over the market.
> >>>>
> >>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>! >&g t;>> competitors
> >>>> use
> >>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds. I feel there is
> >>>> an
> >>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar
> >>>> effect.
> >>>> A
> >>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford.
> >>>> Many
> >>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the
> >>>> US
> >>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs especially
> >>>> at
> >>>> the Masters level.
> >>>>
> >>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to
> >>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger
> &g! t;>& gt;> but
> >>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.
> >>>>
> >>>> ~Glen
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> >>>> Hester
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
> >>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
> >>>> "flying"
> >>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
> >>>>
> >>>> You just blatantly called Arch! Staffo rd a "sandbagger" because he said
> >>>> his
> >>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may
> >>>> not
> >>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill,
> >>>> the
> >>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's certainly
> >>>> capable of it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and whether
> >>>> you
> >>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters
> >>>> pilot.
> >>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and
> >>>> paying
> >>>> his
> >>>>
> >>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, bu! t to fl y FAI on a national
> >>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You
> >>>> can't
> >>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition,
> >>>> not
> >>>> at
> >>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
> >>>> manuevers
> >>>> are different, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100%
> >>>> positive
> >>>>
> >>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a
> >>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots complaining
> >>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they
> >>>> like
> >! ;>&g t;> them as people.
> >>>>
> >>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that.
> >>>> I'd
> >>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the
> >>>> same
> >>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
> >>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier
> >>>> own
> >>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
> >>>> decision.
> >>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have
> >>>> to
> >>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >&g! t;>& gt; From: "Fred Huber"
> >>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> > Well...
> >>>> >
> >>>> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class
> >>>> > until
> >>>> > he
> >>>> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won? Out
> >>>> > of
> >>>> > how
> >>>> > many who have competed?
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
> >>>> >
> >>>> ! > Yo u say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters wants
> >>>> > to
> >>>> > be
> >>>> > the best too. Most will NEVER make it.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Reality is not politically correct.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same trophy:
> >>>> > "Participant"
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> > From: "Matthew Frederick"
> >>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
> >>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Fred,
> >>>> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning
> >>>> >> the
> >>>> >> Nats
> >>>> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats
> >>>> >> finish
> >>>> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the
> >>>> >> nation.
> >>>> >> He
> >>>> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal goal
> >>>> >> he
> >>>> >> has
> >>>> >>! set an d well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and
> >>>> >> knowing
> >>>> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
> >>>> >> calling
> >>>> >> him
> >>>> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6
> >>>> >> who
> >>>> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a
> >>>> >> regular
> >>>> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in
> >>>> >> Masters
> >>>> >> other
> >>>> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
> >>>> >> Pattern.
> >>>> >> I
> >>>> >> completely agree ! with th e point someone else made that stated we
> >>>> >> should
> >>>> >> not
> >>>> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control
> >>>> >> of
> >>>> >> the
> >>>> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me
> >>>> >> to
> >>>> >> move
> >>>> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
> >>>> >> turnaround
> >>>> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
> >>>> >> maneuvers
> >>>> >> that,
> >>>> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
> >>>> >> consider
> >>>> >> to
&g! t; > >>> >> be
> >>>> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Matt
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> >> From: "Fred Huber"
> >>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win... I don't ever
> >>>> >>> expect
> >>>> >>> to
> >>>> >>> accumulate the points needed to force adv! ancemen t from Sportsman.
> >>>> >>> The
> >>>> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
> >>>> >>> others
> >>>> >>> flying. I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to be
> >>>> >>> around
> >>>> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
> >>>> >>> learned
> >>>> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place
> >>>> >>> DEAD
> >>>> >>> LAST
> >>>> >>>! FOREVE R. I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
> >>>> >>> competitive
> >>>> >>> if
> >>>> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so
> >>>> >>> they
> >>>> >>> can
> >>>> >>> always win...
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with the
> >>>> >>> point
> >>>> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger. (not even
> >>>> >>> bothering
> >>>> >>> to
> >>>> >>> look up who made the referenced post...) !
> ; >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
> >>>> >>> others
> >>>> >>> flying.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
> >>>> >>> personal
> >>>> >>> agendas.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> >>> From:
> >>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRC! A-discu ssion] More flexibility in class
> >>>> >>> selection?
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>>I know Glen.
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really
> >>>> >>>> just
> >>>> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a
> >>>> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping stone
> >>>> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
> >>>> >>>> itself
> >>>> >>>> (which it currently is).
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whe! reby a pilot who does
> >>>> >>>> not
> >>>> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally
> >>>> >>>> like
> >>>> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
> >>>> >>>> Masters
> >>>> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to achieve
> >>>> >>>> an
> >>>> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the
> >>>> >>>> option
> >>>> >>>> of
> >>>> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for
> >>>> >>>> example only.
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> I gue! ss my b iggest problem with these threads, is they give me a
> >>>> >>>> big
> >>>> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually
> >>>> >>>> about
> >>>> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and if
> >>>> >>>> you
> >>>> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it
> >>>> >>>> better
> >>>> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play
> >>>> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st
> >>>> >>>> time.
> >>>! ;> & gt;>>> (just ask my wife)
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> -Doug
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> >>>> From: Glen Watson
> >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> >>>> >>>> selection?
> >>>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
> >>>> &! gt;> >>>
> >>>> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the
> >>>> >>>>> Masters
> >>>> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI
> >>>> >>>>> class at any
> >>>> >>>>> contest but not both.
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> ~Glen
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
> >>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM!
&g t; >>>> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> >>>> >>>>> selection?
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet
> >>>> >>>>> again)
> >>>> >>>> is:
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> -Doug
> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-di! scussio n at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>! >> ;
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> --
> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>>> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>>> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date:
> >>>> >>>> 8/14/2007
> >>>> >>>> 5:19 PM
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>
>! ; >& gt;>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
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> >>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> > NSRCA-discuss! ion mai ling list
> >>>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>> http://lis! ts.nsrc a.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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