[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Thu Aug 16 11:09:40 AKDT 2007

My applologies to Glen. Thats what I get for multitasking while at work.

Also, I meant to send that back to the original sender and not to the list.

Pete

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins at worldnet.att.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:57
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

> Pete, I think that note was from George, in response to the message Glen
> sent.
> Jerry
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
>> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie 
>> >Sportsman's
>>>comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
>>
>> Glen,
>>
>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause
>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a
>> person
>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his
>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>
>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but
>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above
>> does
>> nothing to help the sport.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>
>>
>>> Glen,
>>>
>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie 
>>> Sportsman's
>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship.  I
>>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in 
>>> Masters
>>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>>
>>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because 
>>> I
>>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people
>>> trying
>>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the AMA
>>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a real
>>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6
>>> this
>>> year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>>
>>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against that
>>> have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go FAI,
>>> then
>>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly
>>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>>
>>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the storms headed
>>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with
>>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>>
>>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs and
>>>> lows
>>>> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to the 
>>>> NATS
>>>> and
>>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking myself is
>>>> that
>>>> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would
>>>> be.
>>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking what's
>>>> good
>>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>>
>>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this
>>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second is to be as
>>>> competitive as I can.
>>>>
>>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have 
>>>> fun
>>>> and
>>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote 
>>>> their
>>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>>
>>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?  The short
>>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle of
>>>> the
>>>> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should have
>>>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are fortunate to 
>>>> have
>>>> a
>>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from having
>>>> more
>>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my vantage 
>>>> point
>>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
>>>> influence
>>>> over the market.
>>>>
>>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI 
>>>> competitors
>>>> use
>>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel there is
>>>> an
>>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar 
>>>> effect.
>>>> A
>>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford.
>>>> Many
>>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the
>>>> US
>>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs especially
>>>> at
>>>> the Masters level.
>>>>
>>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to
>>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger
>>>> but
>>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.
>>>>
>>>> ~Glen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>> Hester
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
>>>> "flying"
>>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>>
>>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because he said
>>>> his
>>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may 
>>>> not
>>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill,
>>>> the
>>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's certainly
>>>> capable of it.
>>>>
>>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and whether
>>>> you
>>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters
>>>> pilot.
>>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and 
>>>> paying
>>>> his
>>>>
>>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a national
>>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You
>>>> can't
>>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition, 
>>>> not
>>>> at
>>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
>>>> manuevers
>>>> are different, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100%
>>>> positive
>>>>
>>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a
>>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots complaining
>>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they
>>>> like
>>>> them as people.
>>>>
>>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that.
>>>> I'd
>>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the
>>>> same
>>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier
>>>> own
>>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>>> decision.
>>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have 
>>>> to
>>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>>
>>>> -Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Well...
>>>> >
>>>> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class
>>>> > until
>>>> > he
>>>> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won?  Out 
>>>> > of
>>>> > how
>>>> > many who have competed?
>>>> >
>>>> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>>> >
>>>> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>>> >
>>>> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters wants
>>>> > to
>>>> > be
>>>> > the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>>> >
>>>> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
>>>> >
>>>> > Reality is not politically correct.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same trophy:
>>>> > "Participant"
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Fred,
>>>> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning 
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> Nats
>>>> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats
>>>> >> finish
>>>> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the 
>>>> >> nation.
>>>> >> He
>>>> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal goal
>>>> >> he
>>>> >> has
>>>> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and
>>>> >> knowing
>>>> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
>>>> >> calling
>>>> >> him
>>>> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6
>>>> >> who
>>>> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a
>>>> >> regular
>>>> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in
>>>> >> Masters
>>>> >> other
>>>> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
>>>> >> Pattern.
>>>> >> I
>>>> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we
>>>> >> should
>>>> >> not
>>>> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control 
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me 
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> move
>>>> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>>> >> turnaround
>>>> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>>> >> maneuvers
>>>> >> that,
>>>> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally 
>>>> >> consider
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> be
>>>> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Matt
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't ever
>>>> >>> expect
>>>> >>> to
>>>> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from Sportsman.
>>>> >>> The
>>>> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
>>>> >>> others
>>>> >>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to be
>>>> >>> around
>>>> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
>>>> >>> learned
>>>> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place
>>>> >>> DEAD
>>>> >>> LAST
>>>> >>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
>>>> >>> competitive
>>>> >>> if
>>>> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so
>>>> >>> they
>>>> >>> can
>>>> >>> always win...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with the
>>>> >>> point
>>>> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>>>> >>> bothering
>>>> >>> to
>>>> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
>>>> >>> others
>>>> >>> flying.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier 
>>>> >>> personal
>>>> >>> agendas.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
>>>> >>> selection?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>I know Glen.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really
>>>> >>>> just
>>>> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a
>>>> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping stone
>>>> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
>>>> >>>> itself
>>>> >>>> (which it currently is).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot who does
>>>> >>>> not
>>>> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally
>>>> >>>> like
>>>> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
>>>> >>>> Masters
>>>> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to achieve
>>>> >>>> an
>>>> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the 
>>>> >>>> option
>>>> >>>> of
>>>> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for
>>>> >>>> example only.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give me a
>>>> >>>> big
>>>> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually
>>>> >>>> about
>>>> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and if
>>>> >>>> you
>>>> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it 
>>>> >>>> better
>>>> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play
>>>> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st 
>>>> >>>> time.
>>>> >>>> (just ask my wife)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> -Doug
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> >>>> selection?
>>>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the 
>>>> >>>>> Masters
>>>> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI
>>>> >>>>> class at any
>>>> >>>>> contest but not both.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> ~Glen
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>>> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> >>>>> selection?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet 
>>>> >>>>> again)
>>>> >>>> is:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> -Doug
>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>> >>>>>
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