[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Thu Aug 16 10:57:46 AKDT 2007

Pete, I think that note was from George, in response to the message Glen 
sent.
Jerry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season


> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie Sportsman's
>>comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
>
> Glen,
>
> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause
> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a 
> person
> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his
> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>
> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but
> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above 
> does
> nothing to help the sport.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Pete
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
>> Glen,
>>
>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie Sportsman's
>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship.  I
>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in Masters
>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>
>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because I
>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people 
>> trying
>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the AMA
>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a real
>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6 
>> this
>> year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>
>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against that
>> have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go FAI, 
>> then
>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly
>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>
>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the storms headed
>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>
>> George
>>
>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with
>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>
>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs and
>>> lows
>>> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to the NATS
>>> and
>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking myself is
>>> that
>>> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would
>>> be.
>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking what's
>>> good
>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>
>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this
>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second is to be as
>>> competitive as I can.
>>>
>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have fun
>>> and
>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote their
>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>
>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?  The short
>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle of
>>> the
>>> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should have
>>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are fortunate to have
>>> a
>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from having
>>> more
>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my vantage point
>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
>>> influence
>>> over the market.
>>>
>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI competitors
>>> use
>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel there is
>>> an
>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar effect.
>>> A
>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford.
>>> Many
>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the 
>>> US
>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs especially
>>> at
>>> the Masters level.
>>>
>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to
>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger
>>> but
>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.
>>>
>>> ~Glen
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>> Hester
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>
>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
>>> "flying"
>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>
>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because he said
>>> his
>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may not
>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill,
>>> the
>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's certainly
>>> capable of it.
>>>
>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and whether
>>> you
>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters
>>> pilot.
>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and paying
>>> his
>>>
>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a national
>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You
>>> can't
>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition, not
>>> at
>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
>>> manuevers
>>> are different, etc.
>>>
>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100%
>>> positive
>>>
>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a
>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots complaining
>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they 
>>> like
>>> them as people.
>>>
>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that.
>>> I'd
>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the
>>> same
>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier 
>>> own
>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that 
>>> decision.
>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have to
>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>
>>>
>>> > Well...
>>> >
>>> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class
>>> > until
>>> > he
>>> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won?  Out of
>>> > how
>>> > many who have competed?
>>> >
>>> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>> >
>>> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>> >
>>> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters wants
>>> > to
>>> > be
>>> > the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>> >
>>> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
>>> >
>>> > Reality is not politically correct.
>>> >
>>> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same trophy:
>>> > "Participant"
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Fred,
>>> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning the
>>> >> Nats
>>> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats
>>> >> finish
>>> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the nation.
>>> >> He
>>> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal goal
>>> >> he
>>> >> has
>>> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and
>>> >> knowing
>>> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
>>> >> calling
>>> >> him
>>> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6
>>> >> who
>>> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a
>>> >> regular
>>> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in 
>>> >> Masters
>>> >> other
>>> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
>>> >> Pattern.
>>> >> I
>>> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we
>>> >> should
>>> >> not
>>> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control of
>>> >> the
>>> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me to
>>> >> move
>>> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>> >> turnaround
>>> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many 
>>> >> maneuvers
>>> >> that,
>>> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally consider
>>> >> to
>>> >> be
>>> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>> >>
>>> >> Matt
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't ever
>>> >>> expect
>>> >>> to
>>> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from Sportsman.
>>> >>> The
>>> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
>>> >>> others
>>> >>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to be
>>> >>> around
>>> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
>>> >>> learned
>>> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place
>>> >>> DEAD
>>> >>> LAST
>>> >>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
>>> >>> competitive
>>> >>> if
>>> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so
>>> >>> they
>>> >>> can
>>> >>> always win...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with the
>>> >>> point
>>> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even 
>>> >>> bothering
>>> >>> to
>>> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
>>> >>> others
>>> >>> flying.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier personal
>>> >>> agendas.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>I know Glen.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really
>>> >>>> just
>>> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a
>>> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping stone
>>> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
>>> >>>> itself
>>> >>>> (which it currently is).
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot who does
>>> >>>> not
>>> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally
>>> >>>> like
>>> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
>>> >>>> Masters
>>> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to achieve
>>> >>>> an
>>> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the option
>>> >>>> of
>>> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for
>>> >>>> example only.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give me a 
>>> >>>> big
>>> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually
>>> >>>> about
>>> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and if
>>> >>>> you
>>> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it better
>>> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play
>>> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st time.
>>> >>>> (just ask my wife)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -Doug
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
>>> >>>> selection?
>>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the Masters
>>> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI
>>> >>>>> class at any
>>> >>>>> contest but not both.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ~Glen
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> >>>>> selection?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet again)
>>> >>>> is:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> -Doug
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> >>>>>
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