[NSRCA-discussion] If you don't score by the rules....don'tadvertise a rulebook event

Mon Oct 2 17:50:54 AKDT 2006

Never have wind.  Just how many directions did we fly at Lubbock????  :):):)

  I believe there are certain fields where an exception to the rules is applicable.  Albuquerque is one of them.  The wind swirls, and it really doesn't matter which way you take off, you may have a 20mph downwind landing, if the letter of the rules is followed.  However, in the pilot's meeting, the past 10 years the CD has made it very clear landing direction only had to be OK'd by the judges.  I believe this is responsible and totally acceptable.

  In Lubbock we have flown the Sportman sequence twice through for the past 5 years.  I think I have mentioned it in the sanction deviation from the rules.  However, I always pull the sportsman pilots aside and ask if anyone has an objection or fuel issue.  They have always, to date, been extremely happy that they get more air time.  Our score sheets are redone to reflect this in the flight.  Again, smiles and happy pilots.

  At Temple several years ago prior to the change in rules the CD made a rulling when the wind was swirling and blowing badly.  0 or 10 and was agreed upon by the pilots.  Realize this runway is only about 300ft long and is surrounded by trees in a horseshoe pattern.  Again, I believe this decision to be responsible and totally acceptable due to the conditions.

  On the other hand, in Lubbock where our runway truely is HUGE, even with pilots boxes the landing area is 85 ft across, there really isn't any reason to make a Landing/TO change from the rules.

  However, that is why we have a CD, Pilot's Meeting etc etc.  Each case needs to be looked at reasonably.

  My $.02
  ed

Terry Brox <tbrox at cox.net> wrote:
      Brian is correct. We have done this many times at our contest. I have been to many contests that was done the same way. As far as telling people ahead of time, it can only be done with some knowlege of what the weather gods are going to present us at the contest. Here in Kansas, that is not possible such as it is in the Texas contests. LOL They never have wind. Just a slight breeze. LOL
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: brian young 
  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
  Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 8:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] If you don't score by the rules....don'tadvertise a rulebook event

  Sorry you got a bad impression. From past experience and when the landings were scored incrementally the reason they were changed to 0 and 10 at the pilots meeting is frequently less than perfect conditions, or small runway. 

  Landing is normally where planes get broken, and takeoffs are normally where people get ran out of judges chairs. So in bad conditions it makes sense to modify the scoring. So if you bother to travel to a contest and the weather is crummy it makes it a little easier for some if they dont have so much pressure to make a landing. We dont want anyone to break a plane and possibly end their season, we need everyone thats interested in pattern to stay interested. Hope you get back in the mood to hit some contests. 

  Im with ya on the scoring of the TO and landings though, landings can be tough to get right and if you do them well you want them scored no matter the k factor. 

  Fred Huber <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:
    BODY {   MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; COLOR: #0033cc; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica  }        This wasn't this year... I didn't go to a contest this year partly because of the bad feeling left over from the previous rules deviations... which were made at the pilots meeting propr to the first flight... and I would have been the sole opposition.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Verne Koester 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] If you don't score by the rules....don't advertise a rulebook event

  Fred,
  They WERE scoring by the rules at the contests you attended this year. Under the current rules, takeoffs and landings are scored EITHER 0 or 10 for all classes. 

  Effective January 1, 2007, Takeoffs and landings will be FROM 0 to 10 in half point increments for all AMA classes. 

  You're right, deviations from the rule book are supposed to be advertised in advance of the contest date.

  Verne Koester
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Fred Huber 
  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
  Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:45 PM
  Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] If you don't score by the rules.... don't advertise a rulebook event

  This has been annoying me for a long time....

At Sportsman level the K=1 takeoff and landing scores can significantly 
affect the contest results.

The all too common practice of changing the rules at the last minute, to 
give Sportsman 0 or 10 on take-off and landing,  is inappropriate. 
(Inappropriate to chane the scoring system for any maneuver at ANY level!) 
Of course all the higher level pilots will agree to it... it does not affect 
them.  ANY ONE PILOT in Sportsman (or whatever other class is affected) 
contesting the change without it having been advertised as a rule 
modification in advance should prevent the change.

Yes, the takeoff and landing scoring is something that I think has affected 
my outcome at contests.  I flew a plane that had a large problem with stall 
turns... with a 6 being a good result for that maneuver.  Full opposed 
aileron wasn't enough to prevent the plane from rolling when rudder was 
applied.  But I figured my quality of takeoff and landing would more than 
make up for the poor stall turns, so I showed up for the contests.  And 
every contest I showed up at... they on the spot said "Sportsman gets 0 or 
10 takeoff and landing"  When all the marginal takeoffs of the other pilots 
in my class got 10's (Many deserved 5's... or 2's...  and I was consistantly 
getting complimented on the smoothness of my takeoffs and landings.) it took 
away the ability for me to make up for my known problem with the stall turn.

Next contest I go to... if they decide to change the rules on the spot... I 
want my entry fee back. (applies to some other events I have been to 
also...)
If they advertise in advance that the scoring won't be by rulebook... I 
won't show up.

I kept quiet about it (except discussing it with a couple of local flyers) 
when it occured.  Too many much more accompished pilots were in favor of the 
change.  IT HAD NO EFFECT ON THEM!  They shouldn't have been part of the 
discussion at all.

You want to change a rule that affects only one class at the pilots' meeting 
before the first flight... ANY ONE PILOT in that class opposing the change 
prevents it.  And pilots in other classes have no vote.

If the wind is too much for the pilot to think he wants to risk getting a 
bad score on takeoff and landing... maybe its too much wind for that pilot 
to bother making a takeoff.  All of the other pilots in the class will be 
dealing with the same wind.  It has just as much chance of preventing them 
from getting a 10.

Any contest that decides to give Sportsman 0 or 10 for takeoff or landing 
should list it as non-rulebook in advance.  If you are going to do the 
2-passes through the sequence without the full stop landing and another 
takeoff... you need to advertise that too.

I oppose the flying of 2 "flights" of Sportsman with one takeoff and one 
landing...  The takeoff and landing are scored maneuvers, suppposed to be 
able to get a score other than 0 or 10, therefore cutting half of the 
opportunities to do well or poorly on them is changing the scoring vs the 
rulebook. (see above... I  moved this paragraph due to changes in the below 
from the original version)

Also... the Sportsman sequence is relatively short for a reason.  This is an 
introductory class.  The contestants are not used to competing... not used 
to getting judged.  They need the ability to do one competition round... go 
back and talk with others about what they did right, what they did wrong and 
how to improve.  They also need a bit of timne to RELAX between the scored 
flights.

Considering how nervous some people are in thier early competition rounds... 
its a wonder to me that a first time Sportsman level competitor ends up with 
thier airplane in the air by the end of a second sequence within one flight.

The first contest someone flys in, they typically fly too close in, and 
because of this ALL maneuvers are extremely rushed.  By the end of the 
flight some contestants are so frazzled that they have severe problems doing 
the double-immelman AT ALL.  Then you want them to immedately turn around 
and run the sequence again?  Why not just tell them to land at the judges 
feet so the judges can stomp on the model?

Thats not a formula to promote  more participation... its a formula to scare 
off beginners.  If the pilot is ready to run the sequence twice in a row FOR 
THE JUDGES.. they are probably ready to start working on Inermediate.

Most people I have seen move up from Sportsman, its been due to seeking the 
higher challenge of Intermediate... not due to getting the points forcing 
the move up.  "Sandbagging" Sportsman is rare.

Also... it is justifiable for someone competing at Sportsman to set up thier 
plane for one round flight durration.  If they average 4 minutes to do a 
round... and put in a tank which gives 6 minute fuel supply, then the 
2-rounds in one flight is a guaranteed dead-stick before completion of the 
second round.  Do you force Master's level pilots to carry enough fuel for 2 
passes through the sequence?  Would they tollerate that?

Forcing a competitor to carry the DEAD WEIGHT of the fuel for a second round 
through the first round is inappropriate.  At Sportsman level... the type 
models which are competitive include models which would have severe CG 
change with the fuel depletion...

If you think a Sportsman competitor needs to be able to run 2 times through 
the sequence nonstop, you probably also think everyone needs to buy a $3000 
plane, capable of flying the Masters sequence, in order to try out 
Sportsman.  Its totaly unnecessary, inappropriate and shuts out beginners.

FHH 

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