[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

Mon Nov 20 03:40:24 AKST 2006

Scott
 I believe Dave explained it,finally.

Jim Ivey

How many center maneuvers start at center?  Technically, none (they all have an entry radius or rolling element prior to center, let alone the straight line entry), but outside of the manuevers that start at center (save the straight line entry) such as centered stall turns, 2 loops, centered humpties, etc......many of the center maneuvers don't start at center......slow roll, 4 point roll, etc.....Square loop, Cuban, hourglass, Z, Goldfish, Double I, etc...

I don't see a problem with a maneuver that is symmetrical about center not "starting" at center.

This whole thing shouldn't be an issue - trust me, if the Masters Schedule subcommittee ever thought this kind of discussion would ensue over this maneuver, we'd have put in something really exciting like straight inverted flight.  And this kind of discussion makes me think we need to put a clause in the rulebook regarding "plain English" - this should be simple, fly PAST center, start the Sq Hor 8 with a negative push, and when it is done, if it isn't two squares side by side on side of the center pole, downgrade per the rules (and no, no special downgrades are needed to describe this manuever, all you need to know is in the basics of the judging guide....in plain English).

There have been some excellent writeups and points made in this thread.....the answers are all there for this maneuver, and for the straight lines between maneuvers.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott Smith 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

  Sorry if I missed it but did we ever get a consensus on this?  That is, where does judging start?  

  The rule book description says:  Square Horizontal Eight: Model pulls up and commences a square loop, when at the bottom of the third leg...

  So I believe the maneuver starts at the upwind push.  I think we need to be clear on this since it's possible to fly the preceding humpty so close to center (with a pull at the top) that the final quarter loop takes you past center (this is a very good thing if you're trying to minimize exposure while inverted!), yet still leaving a 30M line between maneuvers.  

  How would you score it? (Please leave S&G and pace out of the equation and respond just on technical merit.)  
  -----Original Message-----
  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Rcmaster199 at aol.com
  Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:25 AM
  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

    The rule book is explicit on balanced center maneuvers of this type, as Don pointed out.

    If one were to break the maneuver into its elements, the start is at Center at the initiation of the first inverted S&L (1st element), prior to the first push into first radius (2nd element). There must be a 15m S&L prior to center. 

    The end is after the last radius at center, which makes the first element (inverted hor line) and last element (1/4 loop) tangent. And there must be the obligatory 15m S&L past center at the end. 

    It seems that some are arguing whether the short line segment of the first element immediately past Center, which is covered by the last radius at exit, should be included or excluded from the maneuver entry. It's a valid argument and it seems to be a grey area, but is a moot point. Either way, the short line segment has to be covered by at least the initial 15 m S&L line prior to the start.

    In another point of view, Nits are people too and if we didn't Pick on them, there'd be little point to the discussion board (VBG)

    Matt

    In a message dated 11/12/2006 8:24:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, schale at optonline.net writes:
      " As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
      Don"

      What Don said is probably true.  Agreed there is a long inverted flight
      before the first push to vertical in the horizontal eight and after the
      humpty bump.  If someone is weaving, or changing altitude during this
      portion, the judge is going to downgrade one of the two maneuvers.  I would
      think if there was a reasonable straight and level after the humpty then the
      rest is judged on the horizontal eight.  Do we really have segments of
      flight that should not be judged or added to a downgrade for anything but
      straight and level?

      Stuart Chale

      -----Original Message-----
      From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
      [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
      (CoxNet)
      Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:40 PM
      To: NSRCA Mailing List
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

      Lance,

      I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center and start at 
      center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time the model 
      passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after takeoff and 
      landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the slow roll, 
      etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.

      Don

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
      To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
      Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

      > Lance
      > You will have to have a entry line before the push to vertical past
      > center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of the entry line.
      >
      > Jim Ivey
      > ----- Original Message ----- 
      > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
      > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
      > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
      > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
      >
      >
      >> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the radius after
      >> center, at the first corner initiation?
      >>
      >> --Lance

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