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<DIV>
<DIV>Scott</DIV>
<DIV> I believe Dave explained it,finally.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Ivey</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How many center maneuvers start at center? Technically, none (they
all have an entry radius or rolling element prior to center, let alone the
straight line entry), but outside of the manuevers that start at center (save
the straight line entry) such as centered stall turns, 2 loops, centered
humpties, etc......many of the center maneuvers don't start at center......slow
roll, 4 point roll, etc.....Square loop, Cuban, hourglass, Z, Goldfish, Double
I, etc...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't see a problem with a maneuver that is symmetrical about center not
"starting" at center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This whole thing shouldn't be an issue - trust me, if the Masters
Schedule subcommittee ever thought this kind of discussion would ensue over this
maneuver, we'd have put in something really exciting like straight inverted
flight. And this kind of discussion makes me think we need to put a
clause in the rulebook regarding "plain English" - this should be simple,
fly PAST center, start the Sq Hor 8 with a negative push, and when it is
done, if it isn't two squares side by side on side of the center pole,
downgrade per the rules (and no, no special downgrades are needed to describe
this manuever, all you need to know is in the basics of the judging guide....in
plain English).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There have been some excellent writeups and points made in this
thread.....the answers are all there for this maneuver, and for the straight
lines between maneuvers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=js.smith@verizon.net href="mailto:js.smith@verizon.net">Scott
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 20, 2006 7:03
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters
Square 8</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006>Sorry if I missed it but did we ever get a
consensus on this? That is, where does judging start?
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006>The rule book description says:
<B>Square Horizontal Eight: </B>Model pulls up and<SPAN
class=090463200-20112006> commences a square loop, when at the bottom of the
<STRONG><EM>third</EM></STRONG> leg...</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006><SPAN
class=090463200-20112006></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006><SPAN class=090463200-20112006>So I
believe the maneuver starts at the upwind push. I think we need to
be clear on this since it's possible to fly the preceding humpty so close to
center (with a pull at the top) that the final quarter loop
takes you past center (this is a very good thing if you're trying to
minimize exposure while inverted!), yet still leaving a 30M line between
maneuvers. </SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006><SPAN
class=090463200-20112006></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=090463200-20112006><SPAN class=090463200-20112006>How would
you score it? (Please leave S&G and pace out of the equation and
respond just on technical merit.) </SPAN></DIV>
<P align=left></SPAN><FONT face=Tahoma>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Rcmaster199@aol.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:25
AM<BR><B>To:</B> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR><BR></P></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV>The rule book is explicit on balanced center maneuvers of this type, as
Don pointed out.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If one were to break the maneuver into its elements, the start is at
Center at the initiation of the first inverted S&L (1st element), prior
to the first push into first radius (2nd element). There must be a 15m
S&L prior to center. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The end is after the last radius at center, which makes the first
element (inverted hor line) and last element (1/4 loop) tangent. And there
must be the obligatory 15m S&L past center at the end. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It seems that some are arguing whether the short line segment of
the first element immediately past Center, which is covered by the last
radius at exit, should be included or excluded from the maneuver entry. It's
a valid argument and it seems to be a grey area, but is a moot point. Either
way, the short line segment has to be covered by at least the initial 15 m
S&L line prior to the start.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In another point of view, Nits are people too and if we didn't Pick on
them, there'd be little point to the discussion board (VBG)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Matt</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/12/2006 8:24:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
schale@optonline.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
face=Arial>" As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it
matters.<BR>Don"<BR><BR>What Don said is probably true. Agreed there
is a long inverted flight<BR>before the first push to vertical in the
horizontal eight and after the<BR>humpty bump. If someone is
weaving, or changing altitude during this<BR>portion, the judge is going
to downgrade one of the two maneuvers. I would<BR>think if there was
a reasonable straight and level after the humpty then the<BR>rest is
judged on the horizontal eight. Do we really have segments
of<BR>flight that should not be judged or added to a downgrade for
anything but<BR>straight and level?<BR><BR>Stuart
Chale<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Don Ramsey<BR>(CoxNet)<BR>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006
8:40 PM<BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Masters Square 8<BR><BR>Lance,<BR><BR>I believe it starts at center.
Straight line before center and start at <BR>center. The reason I
say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time the model <BR>passes before
the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after takeoff and
<BR>landing." Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the
slow roll, <BR>etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it
matters.<BR><BR>Don<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
<jivey61@bellsouth.net><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Saturday, November 11,
2006 7:16 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square
8<BR><BR><BR>> Lance<BR>> You will have to have a entry line before
the push to vertical past<BR>> center.This is where I think it
starts... at the start of the entry line.<BR>><BR>> Jim Ivey<BR>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<patterndude@comcast.net><BR>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent: Saturday, November
11, 2006 7:51 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square
8<BR>><BR>><BR>>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and
end? At center, the radius after<BR>>> center, at the first
corner initiation?<BR>>><BR>>> --Lance</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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