[NSRCA-discussion] Square Eight

Tue Nov 14 19:05:08 AKST 2006

Dave, I agree with what you have said, and I was trying to get some resolution for clarity and understanding for all about what is judged and how it is judged.
Unfortunately without specifying that about the first line, and/or last line you are leaving interpretation open to those who seem to want to "interpret".  
    I am going to be a devils advocate here to get that clarity! Again I am looking at only the maneuver itself NOT the in/ out lines that all agree have to be there. I am leaving that to DON to clarify the question of "how long"( by the way the old rule book under E. did have the 15 meter numbers)
As example you say "fly PAST center, start the ++Maneuver with a negative push"--- OK I can understand that-so the judging of the maneuver starts when the plane moves off it's inverted track/line --eg the start of the first radius (push) is the first judged part of the "outside square" part of the maneuver.
Now we have to finish it off since we have not completed the last line segment making up the first square (outside)  That line segment to be judged (following your statement) is the final element of the "outside square" and is the result of the last (4th) push in the sequence with the plane now on a straight line (final maneuver element line) projected from the end of the last radius (push) to the original start of the first radius (push)and being -on line, same length, same track, and at same height. Now you have two perfect squares of reverse entry (outside/inside) and same entry and exit attitude (inverted)
This is exactly what I said in my Version One, and is the same as the old 2001 Rulebook description (except the inverted entry)
    This then makes the line preceeding the first push the "entrance line" and it's associated downgrades, and the line after the intersect of the last line and the start of the first push-the "exit line" and it's associated downgrades. Everything else is associated with the maneuver itself.
    This may answer all the potential questions I hear wafting in the breeze.
Version Two does match what I understood to be the intent of Troy's committee, and the Aresti he made. I personally think it would be easier to judge that way,since the judge has no visible previous reference point to match too (no judging aids allowed per somebody!) but somehow the associated wording changes did not reflect that input. 
    SOOO we fly what we got the way it is writ!!! 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: DaveL322 at comcast.net 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List ; NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square Eight

  How many center maneuvers start at center?  Technically, none (they all have an entry radius or rolling element prior to center, let alone the straight line entry), but outside of the manuevers that start at center (save the straight line entry) such as centered stall turns, 2 loops, centered humpties, etc......many of the center maneuvers don't start at center......slow roll, 4 point roll, etc.....Square loop, Cuban, hourglass, Z, Goldfish, Double I, etc...

  I don't see a problem with a maneuver that is symmetrical about center not "starting" at center.

  This whole thing shouldn't be an issue - trust me, if the Masters Schedule subcommittee ever thought this kind of discussion would ensue over this maneuver, we'd have put in something really exciting like straight inverted flight.  And this kind of discussion makes me think we need to put a clause in the rulebook regarding "plain English" - this should be simple, fly PAST center, start the Sq Hor 8 with a negative push, and when it is done, if it isn't two squares side by side on side of the center pole, downgrade per the rules (and no, no special downgrades are needed to describe this manuever, all you need to know is in the basics of the judging guide....in plain English).

  There have been some excellent writeups and points made in this thread.....the answers are all there for this maneuver, and for the straight lines between maneuvers.

  Regards,

  Dave Lockhart

    -------------- Original message -------------- 
    From: "george w. kennie" <geobet at gis.net> 

    Hey Jim,
    My hat's off to you for figuring this one out in the way that's supported by the rulebook. The way that Jerry likes it performed is how Vicente and I originally envisioned it and is actually the most logical to me, but the rulebook supports your original execution procedure. Yup, it can be done more than one way, but the book doesn't grant us an option. Both ways it's a centered maneuver, but the start point is not at center when performed according to the book.
    I think you scooped us on this one Jim. Way to go.
    G.

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: jivey61 at bellsouth.net 
      To: NSRCA Mailing List 
      Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:39 PM
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square Eight

      Jerry 
      So now there is 2 ways to do the 8?
      ......and you want the 1st vertical segment to be on center.That will work too.....
      Look people I have flown this Horizontal 8 every way it can be flown in controlline stunt many years ago......Just tell me which way to fly this one,now.

      Jim Ivey
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Jerry Stebbins 
        To: Discussion -NSRCA 
        Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 11:56 AM
        Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Square Eight

        Mr. Ivey, sir, maybe this will help.(and others also) 
        We all know there are eight (8) lines and (8) corners to the maneuver.
        We all know it is centered- so one half is on each side of center.
        We all know one half of the maneuver is an outside square, and the other is an inside square.
        One would assume that if you have to enter it inverted the first half would be the "outside half"
        Also since you enter inverted and "low" -then one would assume that the maneuver is above that entry line.
        I assume there are really entry and exit lines before and after the maneuver, so where the maneuver "starts" is what we are striving for.
        Most of us (writer not included) can tell where center is--
        soooo---there are two versions on how to do this flying around so lets sort that out also--One version performs the first "outside corner" (push) after center as the first maneuver, the other starts the maneuver on center with the first "outside corner" (push). Maybe there is a clue there since this is a "centered" maneuver.
        First Version
        If you enter the maneuver with a straight line -low - then the first line past center is either the beginning of the maneuver, or not a part of the maneuver, since you have gone past the last corner (on center), and did not do it. Some have said you will never be back to the center in the exactly same attitude again (not totally true since you do enter and exit inverted) during the maneuver so maybe that helps us narrow it down.
        Also if the first three corners are "pushes" and the next four are "pulls" that leaves one "push" left to do.
        OK everyone following so far--we have a "push" corner left to go, for sure,and a horizontal inverted line to define as either the "beginning" or the "end" of the maneuver.
        You could say that you started the maneuver when you went past center, but that would not be "technically correct" since you have to couple the last corner to the line, and it would be a right angle-no length radius to be correct, plus that would force you into an automatic downgrade since it would not be like the other seven--never could do a perfect 10.
        So now do we split the first line into a "start point" that is "some" distance after center so the "end point" of the "corner" has a defineable location, OR find an answer that allows a "10" and is "judgeable" 
        So I would suggest the following would clarify this one. 1) the first part of the maneuver that is judged is the start of the first radius (lets not argue the entrance and exit line existence), and the last part that is judged is the straight line after the eight (8) radius "push" that is of proper length for the "square" geometry, at the same altitude and same track to intersect the "start" point of the first "push" .
        This is doable but does not seem like a reasonable way to end  up a "centered" maneuver
        Version Two
        Again lets not flog the (entrance and exit lines-they exist)
        The maneuver starts inverted and low  with the first part that is judged is the first corner "push" to vertical "on center" to start the "inside" square, followed by four equal lines and "pulls" (last one on center to vertical), followed by three (3) more lines and "pushes" and then the eight (8) and last line judged is the straight line of proper length for the "square" geometry, at the same altitude and same track as the entrance line at the start of the first corner (push), that started the maneuver on "center".
        This makes more sense as it actually "does something" on center to start a "centered" maneuver. Also this matches the Aresti diagram--for what that is worth in the AMA world.
        I think what is confusing some is the fact that not all "pushes" and "pulls' follow each other.
        I vote for this one! --And no need for a flame suit since all I will have to do is Judge it, not Fly it.
        Jerry

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