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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave, I agree with what you have said, and I was
trying to get some resolution for clarity and understanding for all about what
is judged and how it is judged.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Unfortunately without
specifying that about the first line, and/or last line you
are leaving interpretation open to those who seem to want to "interpret".
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I am going to be a devils
advocate here to get that clarity! Again I am looking at only the maneuver
itself NOT the in/ out lines that all agree have to be there. I am leaving that
to DON to clarify the question of "how long"( by the way the old rule book under
E. did have the 15 meter numbers)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As example you say "fly PAST center, start the
++Maneuver with a negative push"--- OK I can understand that-so the judging
of the maneuver starts when the plane moves off it's inverted track/line --eg
the start of the first radius (push) is the first judged part of the
"outside square" part of the maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now we have to finish it off since we have not
completed the last line segment making up the first square (outside) That
line segment to be judged (following your statement) is the final element of the
"outside square" and is the result of the last (4th) push in the sequence
with the plane now on a straight line (final maneuver element line)
projected from the end of the last radius (push) to the original start of
the first radius (push)and being -on line, same length, same track, and at
same height. Now you have two perfect squares of reverse entry
(outside/inside) and same entry and exit attitude (inverted)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is exactly what I said in my Version One, and
is the same as the old 2001 Rulebook description (except the inverted
entry)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This then makes the line
preceeding the first push the "entrance line" and it's associated downgrades,
and the line after the intersect of the last line and the start of the first
push-the "exit line" and it's associated downgrades. Everything else is
associated with the maneuver itself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This may answer all the
potential questions I hear wafting in the breeze.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Version Two does match what I understood to be the
intent of Troy's committee, and the Aresti he made. I personally think it would
be easier to judge that way,since the judge has no visible previous
reference point to match too (no judging aids allowed per somebody!) but
somehow the associated wording changes did not reflect that input. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> SOOO we fly what we got the way
it is writ!!! </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square
Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>How many center maneuvers start at center? Technically, none (they
all have an entry radius or rolling element prior to center, let alone the
straight line entry), but outside of the manuevers that start at center (save
the straight line entry) such as centered stall turns, 2 loops, centered
humpties, etc......many of the center maneuvers don't start at
center......slow roll, 4 point roll, etc.....Square loop, Cuban, hourglass, Z,
Goldfish, Double I, etc...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't see a problem with a maneuver that is symmetrical about center
not "starting" at center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This whole thing shouldn't be an issue - trust me, if the Masters
Schedule subcommittee ever thought this kind of discussion would ensue over
this maneuver, we'd have put in something really exciting like straight
inverted flight. And this kind of discussion makes me think we need
to put a clause in the rulebook regarding "plain English" - this should
be simple, fly PAST center, start the Sq Hor 8 with a negative push,
and when it is done, if it isn't two squares side by side on side of
the center pole, downgrade per the rules (and no, no special downgrades are
needed to describe this manuever, all you need to know is in the basics of the
judging guide....in plain English).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There have been some excellent writeups and points made in this
thread.....the answers are all there for this maneuver, and for the straight
lines between maneuvers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Original message -------------- <BR>From: "george w. kennie"
<geobet@gis.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey Jim,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My hat's off to you for figuring this one out
in the way that's supported by the rulebook. The way that Jerry likes it
performed is how Vicente and I originally envisioned it and is actually
the most logical to me, but the rulebook supports your original execution
procedure. Yup, it can be done more than one way, but the book doesn't grant
us an option. Both ways it's a centered maneuver, but the
start point is not at center when performed according to the
book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think you scooped us on this one Jim. Way to
go.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jivey61@bellsouth.net
href="mailto:jivey61@bellsouth.net">jivey61@bellsouth.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006
12:39 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Square Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So now there is 2 ways to do the
8?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>......and you want the 1st vertical segment
to be on center.That will work too.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Look people I have flown this Horizontal 8
every way it can be flown in controlline stunt many years ago......Just
tell me which way to fly this one,now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim Ivey</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net
href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net">Jerry Stebbins</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Discussion -NSRCA</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006
11:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Square
Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mr. Ivey, sir, maybe this will help.(and
others also) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know there are eight (8) lines and
(8) corners to the maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know it is centered- so one half is
on each side of center.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know one half of the maneuver is an
outside square, and the other is an inside square.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One would assume that if you have to enter
it inverted the first half would be the "outside half"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also since you enter inverted
and "low" -then one would assume that the maneuver is above that
entry line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I assume there are really entry and exit
lines before and after the maneuver, so where the maneuver "starts" is
what we are striving for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Most of us (writer not included) can tell
where center is--</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>soooo---there are two versions on how to do
this flying around so lets sort that out also--One version performs
the first "outside corner" (push) after center as the first
maneuver, the other starts the maneuver on center with the
first "outside corner" (push). Maybe there is a clue there since this is
a "centered" maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First Version</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you enter the maneuver with a straight
line -low - then the first line past center is either the beginning
of the maneuver, or not a part of the maneuver, since you have gone past
the last corner (on center), and did not do it. Some have said you
will never be back to the center in the exactly same attitude again (not
totally true since you do enter and exit inverted) during the maneuver
so maybe that helps us narrow it down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also if the first three corners are
"pushes" and the next four are "pulls" that leaves one "push" left to
do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK everyone following so far--we have a
"push" corner left to go, for sure,and a horizontal inverted line to
define as either the "beginning" or the "end" of the
maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You could say that you started the maneuver
when you went past center, but that would not be "technically correct"
since you have to couple the last corner to the line, and it would be a
right angle-no length radius to be correct, plus that would force you
into an automatic downgrade since it would not be like the other
seven--never could do a perfect 10.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So now do we split the first line into a
"start point" that is "some" distance</FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2>after center so the "end point" of the "corner" has a defineable
location, OR find an answer that allows a "10" and is
"judgeable"</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So I would suggest the following would
clarify this one. 1) the first part of the maneuver that is judged
is the start of the first radius (lets not argue the entrance and exit
line existence), and the last part that is judged is the straight line
after the eight (8) radius "push" that is of proper length for the
"square" geometry, at the same altitude and same track to intersect the
"start" point of the first "push" .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is doable but does not seem like a
reasonable way to end up a "centered" maneuver</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Version Two</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Again lets not flog the (entrance and exit
lines-they exist)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The maneuver starts inverted and low
with the first part that is judged is the first corner "push" to
vertical "on center" to start the "inside" square, followed by four
equal lines and "pulls" (last one on center to vertical),
followed by three (3) more lines and "pushes" and then the eight
(8) and last line judged is the straight line of proper length
for the "square" geometry, at the same altitude and same track as the
entrance line at the start of the first corner (push), that started
the maneuver on "center".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This makes more sense as it actually "does
something" on center to start a "centered" maneuver. Also this matches
the Aresti diagram--for what that is worth in the AMA
world.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think what is confusing some is the fact
that not all "pushes" and "pulls' follow each other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I vote for this one! --And no need for a
flame suit since all I will have to do is Judge it, not Fly
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
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