[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

Del K. Rykert drykert2 at rochester.rr.com
Mon Nov 13 05:10:17 AKST 2006


Judging classes I have attended in past have always stated a discernable 
line to be drawn between maneuvers. So I have always judged as long as I see 
a very definite line before and after a maneuver they are ok with me on the 
line issue when judging. I always expect to see a definite 15m at minimum 
when calling enter the box and when calling exiting the box.  Another reason 
why it is imperative pilots call the box.

    Del

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8


> Actually, 15 meters is only mentioned in the requirement to call the box
> entry and exit and it is a minimum (rule 14).  The length of the line into
> and out of a maneuver is not specified (see "Major and Minor Defects" and
> "Lines" in the regs).  An aircraft traveling 80 mph will cover 15 meters 
> in
> 0.42 seconds.
>
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>
>
>>I don't think the rules support your claim that the 15m entry/exit is a
>> minimum.  I think you have just made up your own rule to downgrade at 1
>> point per 15.  However, this is very lenient downgrading because to get a
>> 1
>> point downgrade by descending or ascending at 15 degrees, over a 100m
>> distance, the plane would change altitude by 77 ft.  A pilot changing
>> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3 degree error.  (note: 
>> the
>> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).
>>
>> Therefore, if I  lose 15 ft of altitude as I fly from the end of the
>> reverse
>> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1 and 2) this should hardly register
>> as
>> a downgrade.
>>
>> --Lance
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>
>>
>>>I agree with Don's description on the maneuver, this makes perfect sense
>>>to
>>> me. However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize the center
>>> or
>>> the first corner as the start because IMO any deviation in track,
>>> altitude
>>> change or wing bobble approaching the eight, whether 15 m or greater 
>>> from
>>> the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for downgrade.
>>>
>>> This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no man's land". I'm
>>> not
>>> sure there is such a thing, I've always thought of the 15 m entry line 
>>> as
>>> a
>>> minimum.
>>>
>>> Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump prior to the
>>> figure eight and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they start loosing
>>> altitude and continue dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's
>>> theoretical
>>> no man's land). I for one would deduct points from the eight based on 
>>> the
>>> 15
>>> degree rule. I don't think the spirit of the rules is "anything goes", 
>>> or
>>> "it's not so bad" as long as it's not 15 m before a maneuver starts. If
>>> one
>>> does score this way then the pilot that keeps a perfect line between
>>> these
>>> two maneuvers will not be rewarded for doing a better job.
>>>
>>> Keith Black
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>
>>>
>>>> Don,
>>>>
>>>> Since it is the point of this list to be nitpicky, let me say that when
>>> the
>>>> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will never return
>>>> to,
>>>> therefore the actual center can not be the start of the manuver.
>>>> Granted,
>>>> the center is part of the straight line that begins and ends all
>>>> manuvers,
>>>> but it is not part of the actual figure 8.  So to be complete, judging
>>>> starts 15m before the exit of the final radius and ends 15m after this
>>>> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual beginning and
>>>> ending.
>>>>
>>>> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to what the
>>> airplane
>>>> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the smoothness and
>>> Gracefulness
>>>> category and should be minimal.  ("no man's land" exists between some
>>>> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its 15m exit
>>>> line
>>>> end, but there is a long space before the 15m entry line of the next
>>>> manuver.)
>>>>
>>>> --Lance
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Lance,
>>>> >
>>>> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center and start
>>>> > at
>>>> > center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time the
>>>> > model
>>>> > passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after 
>>>> > takeoff
>>> and
>>>> > landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the slow
>>> roll,
>>>> > etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
>>>> >
>>>> > Don
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> > From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Lance
>>>> >> You will have to have a entry line before the push to vertical past
>>>> >> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of the entry
>>> line.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Jim Ivey
>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the radius
>>> after
>>>> >>> center, at the first corner initiation?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --Lance
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> >>> From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > Jason
>>>> >>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st loop
>>>> >>> > (outside)
>>>> >>> > to
>>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>> > right of center and next (inside) loop to the left of center.The
>>> first
>>>> >>> > loop
>>>> >>> > is outside loop and 1st vertical segment starts past center.Of
>>> course
>>>> >> swap
>>>> >>> > left and right for opposite flying direction.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Jim Ivey
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> >>> > From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>>>> >>> > To: "NSRCA" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:08 PM
>>>> >>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> Hi All,
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> Does the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just past 
>>>> >>> >> center?
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> Regards,
>>>> >>> >> Jason
>>>> >>> >> www.jasonshulman.com
>>>> >>> >> www.shulmanaviation.com
>>>> >>> >> www.composite-arf.com
>>>> >>> >> -- 
>>>> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>>> >>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> >>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date:
>>>> >>> >> 11/10/2006
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
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