[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

Mon Nov 13 04:43:08 AKST 2006

Actually, 15 meters is only mentioned in the requirement to call the box 
entry and exit and it is a minimum (rule 14).  The length of the line into 
and out of a maneuver is not specified (see "Major and Minor Defects" and 
"Lines" in the regs).  An aircraft traveling 80 mph will cover 15 meters in 
0.42 seconds.

Don

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

>I don't think the rules support your claim that the 15m entry/exit is a
> minimum.  I think you have just made up your own rule to downgrade at 1
> point per 15.  However, this is very lenient downgrading because to get a 
> 1
> point downgrade by descending or ascending at 15 degrees, over a 100m
> distance, the plane would change altitude by 77 ft.  A pilot changing
> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3 degree error.  (note: the
> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).
>
> Therefore, if I  lose 15 ft of altitude as I fly from the end of the 
> reverse
> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1 and 2) this should hardly register 
> as
> a downgrade.
>
> --Lance
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>
>
>>I agree with Don's description on the maneuver, this makes perfect sense 
>>to
>> me. However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize the center
>> or
>> the first corner as the start because IMO any deviation in track, 
>> altitude
>> change or wing bobble approaching the eight, whether 15 m or greater from
>> the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for downgrade.
>>
>> This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no man's land". I'm
>> not
>> sure there is such a thing, I've always thought of the 15 m entry line as
>> a
>> minimum.
>>
>> Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump prior to the
>> figure eight and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they start loosing
>> altitude and continue dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's
>> theoretical
>> no man's land). I for one would deduct points from the eight based on the
>> 15
>> degree rule. I don't think the spirit of the rules is "anything goes", or
>> "it's not so bad" as long as it's not 15 m before a maneuver starts. If
>> one
>> does score this way then the pilot that keeps a perfect line between 
>> these
>> two maneuvers will not be rewarded for doing a better job.
>>
>> Keith Black
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>
>>
>>> Don,
>>>
>>> Since it is the point of this list to be nitpicky, let me say that when
>> the
>>> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will never return
>>> to,
>>> therefore the actual center can not be the start of the manuver.
>>> Granted,
>>> the center is part of the straight line that begins and ends all
>>> manuvers,
>>> but it is not part of the actual figure 8.  So to be complete, judging
>>> starts 15m before the exit of the final radius and ends 15m after this
>>> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual beginning and
>>> ending.
>>>
>>> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to what the
>> airplane
>>> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the smoothness and
>> Gracefulness
>>> category and should be minimal.  ("no man's land" exists between some
>>> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its 15m exit 
>>> line
>>> end, but there is a long space before the 15m entry line of the next
>>> manuver.)
>>>
>>> --Lance
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>>
>>>
>>> > Lance,
>>> >
>>> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center and start 
>>> > at
>>> > center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time the
>>> > model
>>> > passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after takeoff
>> and
>>> > landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the slow
>> roll,
>>> > etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
>>> >
>>> > Don
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> > From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Lance
>>> >> You will have to have a entry line before the push to vertical past
>>> >> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of the entry
>> line.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jim Ivey
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the radius
>> after
>>> >>> center, at the first corner initiation?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --Lance
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >>> From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Jason
>>> >>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st loop
>>> >>> > (outside)
>>> >>> > to
>>> >>> > the
>>> >>> > right of center and next (inside) loop to the left of center.The
>> first
>>> >>> > loop
>>> >>> > is outside loop and 1st vertical segment starts past center.Of
>> course
>>> >> swap
>>> >>> > left and right for opposite flying direction.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Jim Ivey
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >>> > From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>>> >>> > To: "NSRCA" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:08 PM
>>> >>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> Hi All,
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Does the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just past center?
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Regards,
>>> >>> >> Jason
>>> >>> >> www.jasonshulman.com
>>> >>> >> www.shulmanaviation.com
>>> >>> >> www.composite-arf.com
>>> >>> >> -- 
>>> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>> >>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> >>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date:
>>> >>> >> 11/10/2006
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
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