[NSRCA-discussion] weight limits for electrics?

Sun May 14 20:53:57 AKDT 2006

Dave,

You make some good points even tho I don't necessarily agree with you 100% :)

One point you brought up is particularly interesting. It sounds as tho the weight limit was originally intended to create a "performance parity" as you put it.  I'm sure that was intended to be across the class rather than between electrics and glow/gas

I agree, that equal weights are not going to guarantee performance parity as far as power to weight ratio is concerned. Electrics are beginning to edge into the lead there I think - or will be very soon. That's going to be even more true as battery technology continues to develop and improve. If electrics don't have the edge on absolute power, they do have many other advantages.

It seems to me the only way to guarantee any kind of parity in that arena would be to specify a specific max power to weight ratio. Something that would be doable - weigh the plane, measure max rpm on the prop being used and do some math and you would have a power to weight at the prop.

I think I mentioned early on that I could easily meet the weight limit if I just changed packs. Same power out, slightly shorter run time (or re-prop and have slightly less power at same run time) but almost a pound lighter. Its definitely doable at ANY weight. There is another flyer on RC Groups doing a Quest with a smaller motor and packs. He will be almost 2 pounds lighter than me, but at less than 1/2 the power to weight. 

Its just a matter of dollars :)

Larry

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave Lockhart 
  To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
  Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight limits for electrics?

  Larry,

  WOW! I did step into the middle of things didn't I? :) 

   *********yes, you did!!!!

  I don't really have a horse in that race, so I have no informed opinion. I think big bipes might be cool tho!

  *********More time, more money, more hassle, fewer competitors - not cool!!!

  2)Is the current weight rule "fair" to electrics?

  ************Yes, it is fair.

  To me it seems more fair and reasonable to have a take-off weight limit as the standard rather than a dry weight limit. 

  *********This idea does make a lot of sense, but as the electrics have developed (and will continue to develop), true performance parity is not going to be equal if equal takeoff weights are used.  Just for example, 5 of the 8 F3A finalists in 2005 at the US NATs were electric - and all under 11 lbs.  Of the 3 glow, I was 10 lbs 10 oz WITH fuel and I think the other 2 glow were about 11.5 lbs WITH fuel.  The electric I am building now will be about 9.5 lbs WITH lipos, and if I did another glow ship today, it would probably be 10.25 WITH fuel.

  Regards,

  Dave Lockhart

  DaveL322 at comcast.net

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Troy A. Newman 

    To: NSRCA Mailing List 

    Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 12:42 AM

    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight limits for electrics?

    Reality is the Battery is not the fuel. It is the fuel tank. It holds the fuel.

    This is the way FAI has decided to handle the situation, and as a result the AMA pattern folks have decided to follow suit. Right or wrong it is the way it is.  

    <snip>

    Remember this is toy airplanes and its for fun. Anybody that throws a fit about a guy winning with an illegal (overweight) model should have to answer to the firing squad.

    Troy Newman

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Larry 

      To: patternrules at earthlink.net ; NSRCA Mailing List 

      Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:30 PM

      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight limits for electrics?

      Hi Steve,

      That's pretty much what everyone tells me so far, but it doesn't sit quite rite. Makes me feel like I will be cheating and getting away with it because no one checks.

      It also seems like there is a double standard here and that the rules need to be re-evaluated. 

      A glow plane that weighs 5kg empty will definitely have a take off weight HIGHER than mine and yet it would be legal and I am not. It might even have a landing weight higher than mine depending on the size of the tank and length of the routine.

      I wonder if anyone is looking at this as more and more electrics are getting into all aspects of the hobby.

      I just saw in the Apr Kfactor in the D8 column, someone did a conversion and has similar issues - slightly over the 5KG limit with batteries installed.

      It seems to me that batteries should be considered "fuel" and not count towards the total weight OR that take off weight should be the determining factor.

      Ofcourse, as I said, I am a 100% newbie here. Haven't even flown in one contest yet :)

      Larry

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Steven Maxwell 

        To: NSRCA Mailing List 

        Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 7:53 PM

        Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight limits for electrics?

         I wouldn't worry about the weight. A little story to go along with that. At the 1984 Tangerine, one of the 3 top rated contest in the conutry then (Nat's and Rough River) my last conest as a sportsman thats when we had novice,I was winning by a slight margin, the last round on Sunday I got beat out of first by .07 point, so I got second, the 3rd place guy said that the winner had an illegal airplane, slightly over weight, and wanted me to protest, I told him that the guy beat me flying not because he had an overweight plane, and that if he wanted to protest do it his self, he didn't and the ending was finaI. I had already talked to the guy and he said his self that it probably was over weight, real nice about it (EU1A) not the first one of those that didn't make weight.

         So the story goes I don't remember either of the persons names, I do remember it as a fond memory, but I bet nobody can give me either persons names, 22 years later. My first journey to a big contest with no one along for the ride or to fly, just me it was a ball.

         So don't worry about unless you plane on placing at Nats then you need to make weight.

        Steven Maxwell

          ----- Original Message ----- 

          From: Larry 

          To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

          Sent: 5/13/2006 10:34:53 PM 

          Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight limits for electrics?

          Hi all,

          I am brand new to NSRCA and pattern flying in general. I am planning to attend my first ever event later this month.

          I noticed in the rules that the weight limit is 5Kg without fuel.

          How does this apply as far as electric powered planes are concerned? Are the batteries considered the fuel?

          I am asking because my plane is a Quest 90 G2 converted to electric power and it weighs 4.04 Kg "dry" (no batteries) but it weighs 5.33 Kg fully "fueled" with batteries installed.

          I have asked about this on RC Groups and been told not to worry, no one weighs planes except at the NATS.

          Has there been any official word on this? I don't want to feel like I'm cheating in a contest or "getting away" with something.

          Thanks!

          Larry

------------------------------------------------------------------------

        _______________________________________________
        NSRCA-discussion mailing list
        NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
        http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________
      NSRCA-discussion mailing list
      NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
      http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
    NSRCA-discussion mailing list
    NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
    http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  NSRCA-discussion mailing list
  NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20060515/665e97ef/attachment.html 