[NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
vicenterc at comcast.net
vicenterc at comcast.net
Mon Mar 6 06:49:44 AKST 2006
Nat and all,
No, I never run the OS91 valve. The intention is to make the engine to go idle faster than is doing now. Actual idle speed is good.
The reasoning of adding some kind of by-pass is to reduce the pressure or flow to emulate the actual conditions that the OS 160 (using muffler pressure and tank behind the firewall). The process that I am planing to do is to put a restricted controlled by-pass so that the high needle valve goes from 1.5 turn to 2.5 turns at full speed using the V-30 pump. I believe that in the current conditions the pressure is just a little too high and the goal is to emulate the original design conditions of the OS 160 carburetor.
Here some of conclusions base on the feedback I have been getting:
1.- Use the Cline Regulator. A coupled of fellow pilots are using it. Looks like that majority is using the Perry V-30 pump. If the Cline regulator has the regulating feature that allows the power down to idle faster it would be the ideal solution for me. I guess that I will need to buy one and try it. I don't know were to get it. More information on Cline regulator is welcome. I would like to know were the high needle valve is set using the Cline regulator. One person suggested Iron Bay system. No comments at all in the Iron Bay.
2.- Looks like we have been trying the by-pass with not good results. I understood that in one case was fully open and the engine went lean in the up lines. Another suggested to use copper tubing with small hole to control the by-pass flow worked well. I am going to try a needle valve so I would be able to adjust the flow in the by-pass. The goal is to adjust the by-pass so the high end needle valve would be set close to 2.5 open at full speed. Hopefully, that will bring the pressure down so the OS 160 carburetor will work better when power down.
3. Others suggested to adapt the OS 140 RX pump to the OS 160. I have been thinking to do this. I have an old OS 140 RX in my Hydeout. I already retrofitted the OS 140 RX with the V-30 pump and OS 160 carburetor. Installing the V-30 pump with the OS 140 RX carburetor does not work in both engines. Clearly the fuel systems is very sensitive to pressure and the OS 140 RX carburetor requires higher pressure that the V-30 pump can not provide. I have been running the OS 140 RX with the OS carburetor for 3-4 months with good results. However, the time to get idle speed problem still there (similar situation with the OS 160). It is clear that retrofitting the OS 160 with the OS 140 RX carburetor and pump could be the correct solution since the OS 140 RX is a lot better in this regard. I guess that the rule use in the industry to control flow works here also. A high pressure drop valve (OS 140 System) is a lot more precise than the low pressure control valve (OS 160). As we know, high pressure control systems are always more expensive.
4. Many other suggestions on props and adjustments. Believe me, I already tried all of them. Final combination of three blade re-pitched prop with the OS F plugs seems to be popular and is the one I am using now with very good results. The V-30 pump should be adjusted as lean as possible and the low end as lean as possible but not too much.
5. It is clear that all 2-cycle engines will have this behavior. 4-cycle engines are a lot better in this regard. However, I think more precise metering system will improve the situation in 2-cycle (just use the OS 140 RX system). Clearly, other solutions are to go 4-cycle or electric.
Probably I forgot other details.
Thanks,
Vicente
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Mark Hunt" <flyintexan at houston.rr.com>
Nat,
Did you ever run the OS91 on your special header pipe with the valve?...your intention was to lower the in-flight idle speed correct?
-mark
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List ; NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
It is interesting. I agree with all comments that I have been getting.
I am getting around 1,650 RPM in the OS 160. In the 140's a little higher (around 1,700-1750 RPM). I set up a switch (landing gear) so I go even lower in the air. I just go to low idle as soon as I take off. I take the risk and usually the lower setting could be around 100 RPM less.
However, the situation is that in some maneuvers and conditions during the dowlines the combination works well and suddenly the next maneuver does not work as well. It is not consistent time-to-time. For this reasons believe that doing some re-work to make the inlet pressure as close as possible to the original pressures (OS 160) will improve the fact that the engine is not consistent. The OS metering system was design for low pressure.
I will do the experiment. If does not work is not really a big deal. Thanks,
Vicente
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Nat Penton" <natpenton at centurytel.net>
Vicente, I think Ed pretty well answered the questions. OS would not use the Perry in the 91SX-H unless it was first class in performance, also it is much cheaper than buying the OS pumps. Thats why OS went to it.
FYI, to install the 140 pump in the 160 you need that portion of the 140 backplate the four bolts are screwed into. Cut off the sides, Cut an appropriate hole in the 160 backplate to match the pump. With attention to detail you will be able to remove the pump from the 160 after the JB Weld sets, but I think you should use the Perry instead and save the money.
With reference to the two stroke idle, is the problem on the ground or on the downline ? What idle RPM are you getting with the 140, 160, Mintor ? You can't get the downline braking with the two stk, compared to the four, regardless of prop selection. Nat
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Alt
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
Is this the VP30 pump that is being experimented with? I have had great results with this on several OS 1.60's, but it does require that you reduce the pump pressure by at least two turns. Also, the low end needle needs to be leaned alot, usually about 2 turns to start with. I haven't had any issues with mid range at all after fine tuning from these as starting points and it holds up very well over time.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List ; NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
John:
Thanks for your advice. I already worked the prop. The best I found is the 3 blade re-pitched. I just want to improve it more. Probably very difficult task base on the feedback I am getting.
I like your idea to tune the return line. I have been thinking to go that route with a Perry external needle valve in the return line. The process would be, in the OS 160, to adjust the return needle valve until the high end needle valve is about 2.5 turns open at full power. That is the normal setting when I run the engine with no pump. In this way, we will be close to the original design pressure. Normally, the OS 160 with the Perry pump sets within 1 to 1.5 turns open. Than means that the pressure is too high.
Vicente
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
Yeah, I tend to agree with Nat here. After some discussion about the Perry loop idea, I know someone who actually tried it. It came down to the theory vs. reality thing i.e. "only one way to find out..." It seemed like a good idea, but it didn't seem to work on our big motors. I think that in order for this to work properly, you would need a pump that is capable of way more volume AND pressure than you need. In addition to this, the regulator should be an external device, not inside the pump like the way it is with a VP-30, or the internal regualtor needs to have an eaxternal "return" line. This is how a fuel-injected automotive system works, so it is possible. The Perry loop thing works for R/C cars and smaller motors but I think the pump needs more volume to feed our big motors with that big gaping "hole" in the system (the return loop). Maybe tuning the size of the return loop wi! ! th a restrictor would be worth a try. Is it worth the effort? Generally a VP-30 that is properly adjusted will give reliable performance with just a vent line and no tank pressure / no return loop. Props have a big effect on what happens when you return to idle too. If you want to help downline braking, look at props before you spend a lot of time re-designing the fuel system. Also, try setting the idle a little bit richer. The slow transition to idle condition is sometimes aggravated by a lean idle mixture. Not trying to discredit anyone's theories, just passing along some of my observations.
John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Nat Penton
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 3:48 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
Diaphram operated fuel pumps made by OS ( Hanno, 140 RX, 91 SH <Perry?>) are self regulating in that output is proportional to RPM, proportional to need. These pumps can be adapted to any 90 to 160 two stroke with JB Weld and without maching skills. The tank is vented and there is no pressure in the system.
I have had impeccable performance using these pumps on the OS91FX for the last four years. I believe the logic in the circulating systems is flawed. Nat
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List ; NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
Hi Brian,
You got it right. In the OS 160 we would like to set up the pressure in the header before the carb as close as possible to the original design (muffler pressure with tank close to firewall). In this way, the carburetor metering system will work as was originally designed. I will be doing some test and see what will work better.
The expert at Perry recommended to send the overflow to the tank. However, I agree that loop around the fuel pump could work since that is one old method to control pressure in industrial pumps.
Vicente
-------------- Original message --------------
From: brian young <brian_w_young at yahoo.com>
So I guess the thinking behind doing this is that you deliver the fuel to the carb and its there for the carb to take. But the fuel at the carb nipple will only be under atmospheric pressure (since the tanks vented), anything extra is free to go back to the tank. The venturi affect of the carb will draw the fuel into the carb. I dont see why you would need to go clear back to the tank, just loop around the pump.
This sounds like it could take the variability of pumps out of the equation and at the same time let the pump deliver fuel to the carb, but not push fuel into the carb.
Interesting.
Wayne Galligan <wgalligan at texasairnet.com> wrote:
Vincent,
!
I wonder if this "T" setup would work on an OS 1.40. I already use the check valve in the vent so a couple of "T's" and maybe I would be in business. Would you have to change the pump pressure?
Wayne Galligan
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent! : Sunday, March 05, 2006 8:19 AM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines
Good morning all,
I have been using the OS 160, OS 140 RX and Mintor 140 with good results in the last 4-5 years. We have been comparing and discussing the advantages of YS compared with 2C. One of the main advantages of YS is that in transition when power down the engine goes instantly to 2000 RPM or less. The 2C engines always takes too much time to get down to idle and I believe that causes us (in pattern) some problems.
I have been thinking that the problem is that the carburetor and or fuel system that can not regulate properly (pressure or flow). I think in these engines, the pumps are set to deliver fuel at full flow (or pressure) without any regulation system (like the YS). ! I had the opportunity to discuss this issue with Perry Pump and they recommended to install a by-pass line. The idea is to send the excess fuel (pressure) back to the tank during transition. Perry Pump recommended to install the T as close as possible to the carburetor needle valve. Also in their web site they have an idea that he said is used for cars that is a by-pass line that loop around the pump (http://www.perrypumps.com/instructions.htm, Click on Pump and By-Pass Systems). I think the ideas deserve some checking since it is natural to have this type of regulation to maintain constant pre! ! ! ss! ure in the line before needle valve. I tried the other day the by-pass to the carburetor but I installed the T too far from the carburetor and forgot to open the vent in the tank. Of course the results were bad since I was developing vacuum in the tank. I wi! ll try these options of by-pass lines as soon as get warmer. However, I think someone out there already tried to do this and know results so I am looking for feed back.
Thanks in advance,
Vicente Bortone
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