[NSRCA-discussion] Noise - Overfly - and DifferentAerobatic Model Types
Dean Pappas
d.pappas at kodeos.com
Fri Mar 3 06:55:53 AKST 2006
Hi Bill,
As Pogo said, " We have met the enemey, and they is ... us!"
A little wisdom from the Okeefenokee Swamp couldn't hurt.
I'll bet you were torn up about making that recommendation to the home club.
We need to see a little further down the road, in order to assure the viability of both events.
later,
Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bill Glaze
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 10:02 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Noise - Overfly - and DifferentAerobatic
Model Types
Dean:
In further support of what you say, notice that at Muncie the last 2 Nats',
the allocation of flying sites at the Pattern Nats' has been changed to
allow for the large amount of real estate consumed by the roller. The AMA
site at Muncie is huge; if you translate the above problem to the "average
neighborhood site" real problems start to rear their heads.
We've had the same problem at our home field; when I was on the IMAC BOD, I
had to recommend to the officers of my own club that we NOT hold another
IMAC contest because of neighborhood relations. But still, some damage was
done, and we have beginning/ending curfews as the residue of past IMAC
contests. Only 2 contests, but the damage was done. Since that time past,
IMAC has made some real progress in curtailing sound, but IMHO a whole lot
more needs to be done.
As far as any IMAC bashing, I call to peoples attention that this is a
discussion; drawbacks as well as positives need to be brought out.
Bill Glaze
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Noise - Overfly - and Different Aerobatic
Model Types
> Hi Dave,
> What I hope we are saying here, is that being smart and making our
> aerobatic planes quiet is good for the continued survival of both events.
> Of course, if flyers with large, loud, and far-away 40% planes lose all
> our practice fields and practice sites ...
>
> This is just how the West Windsor contest in Jersey became a "first annual
> and only ever" event.
> Sadly, I have to say that two or three IMACers joined the club, and within
> a few months, we had no Pattern Contest, a 6:00 P.M. weekday curfew on wet
> power, and neighbors who are now very aware of our existence. Being
> noticed ain't always a good thing! Smart noise abatement programs are
> aimed at preventing that first complaint. Once it happens, it's almost too
> late.
>
> To this end, I dearly would like to see the FAI consider a schedule
> change(s) on an emergency basis, to change the existing rolling circles
> into rolling-looping figures of some sort. Rolling circles are beautiful,
> but potential flying site killers. The meaningful noise rules and
> Turnaround, both dating back to the visionary changes in the early
> eighties, were necessary to save the event from not being viable
> World-wide. Further efforts along this line are necessary to ensure the
> continued viability of the event: in populated areas, at least.
>
> later friends,
> Dean Pappas
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Dave Michael
> Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 9:36 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC VsPatternParticipation?Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
>
>
> OK, so what are we saying here? I think it says that Pattern is
> neighborhood friendly and IMAC is noisy and rude. While I don't think
> it's as bad as my good friend Ed describes, let's say it's just like that
> for sake of discussion.
>
> What does this mean for Pattern?
>
> I don't think this really means much for Pattern at all. I have heard
> this message before- pattern is good because it is quiet so, for that
> reason, it is better and people should want to join in on the fun. That's
> not a strong Marketing campaign.
>
> Right or wrong, for most potential participants, this is probably not even
> a major factor in their decision making process to get involved- you could
> even make the argument that the sound drives some people to and not away
> from IMAC. Now, don't get me wrong- I agree that the big planes should be
> quieter (in fact, they are quieter than a few years ago and we owe that in
> no small part to some of the pattern folks I know and who may be reading
> this message) and that all modelers should work to be good neighbors in
> order to keep flying field and events.
>
> However if we are talking about how to get more participation in pattern,
> I think we need to look at the product. As I outlined in an earlier post
> today, from a Marketing prospective Pattern faces an uphill battle- it's
> not as interesting to the average flyer (prospective customer) and there
> are similar disciplines (other products) that are flashier and get more
> press.
>
> I got involved in an almost identical discussion on this list a while back
> and, quite frankly, I came away with the feeling that the "core" pattern
> group likes the event just the way it is now and do not want to change it.
> It is perfectly fine to feel that way but you can't have it that way and
> expect to see changes in participation rates. >From where I sit- the
> issue of "growing pattern" is just like trying to expand one's business.
> If you are determined to keep producing the same product but are
> continually unhappy with your company sales you need a new CEO....
>
> I don't expect that pattern will change much and I'm ok with that. I will
> fly a pattern contest or two now and again because I like the sequence
> work the best, I appreciate the precision and performance and I get a huge
> charge out of the demonstrated control over the aircraft required to
> perform a really well flown maneuver.
>
> But- I would probably fly in more contests and think you would see some
> new faces if we tried to spruce up the product a bit. Bill Glaze
> mentioned that he was considering doing unknowns. Bill, to answer your
> question, I would say "go for it" and introduce unkowns. They are a lot
> of fun! I believe that you can further demonstrate your flying abilities
> by performing well in the unknowns. It is a real challenge and you feel
> great when you do them well.
>
> Oh, well, that's enough for now. Gotta go put the cannisters and three
> bladed prop on my 40% Extra..... :)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Alt <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs PatternParticipation?Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
>
> Jay:
> Very true. Several sites formerly used for SA contests have been lost here
> in the NE due to noise / neighbor complaints during contests. I heard
> that another contest went away due to liability concerns after a severe
> injury involving a contestant and his own airplane, then there's another
> which very sadly is going away because of real estate development (PGRC
> field). There's a lot of history at that field. Anyway, the noise
> footprint concern is huge. We had a request for our club to host a 2nd SA
> contest this year because of the loss of so many other sites. We turned
> it down in part because of the fact that the noise rules are now ignored,
> the box boundaries went away and the sequences are insane, making the
> noise footprint problem worse than it's ever been. Even as wide open as we
> think our contest field is, we've had complaints and we didn't want to
> increase the exposure and risk. They better figure out what is plainly
> obvious to at least some of us, because the current profile of the event
> is fairly obnoxious to alot of people. The hovering next to the pits also
> has the club member volunteers pretty darned annoyed and with them as well
> as being concerned with liability, but the attitude by some is that it's
> their right - to paraphrase - "it's IMAC, it's what we do".
>
> Anyway, compare the D1 contest calendar to the NE IMAC contest calendar
> and tell me again that IMAC is gaining while pattern is losing. Not around
> here is isn't.
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jay Marshall <mailto:lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation?Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
>
> The strongest control is the neighbors closing down the site.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bill Glaze
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:59 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
>
> Ed:
> I'll tell you of the latest iteration/interpretation when I get back from
> Florida. I'm sure it will be interesting. It is amazing and a little
> more than baffling to me that, with the loudest airplanes in modeling,
> there is somewhere between little or no effort to control the noise
> footprint.
> Bill Glaze
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Alt <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>
> To: randy10926 at comtekmail.com ; NSRCA Mailing List
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
>
> For all practical purposes, Scale Aerobatics has no box anymore. It
> exists as an abstract concept on a piece of paper in that it has a defined
> height, width and depth, but since they eliminated the 75 degree markers,
> there is nothing left to measure it against. Additionally, they
> eliminated the concept of zones, so you are free to place things where it
> seems good to place them, i.e., a figure that would appear to be meant for
> the center of the box doesn't have to be flown directly in front of you.
> Your choice of placement has some kind of connection to the so-called
> Presentation Score as it was originally 'defined'. There are no
> deductions for centering inaccuracy. Once you enter the box, you still
> need to get figures in the correct order and direction, though cross box
> figures leave direction (in or out) to the discretion of the pilot.
> Currently, there may or may not be enforcement of a pure impressionist
> extra figure known as the Presentation Score. It passed as a rule, then
> everyone was instructed by the IMAC BOD not to follow the AMA rule they
> pushed through. I heard rumblings that maybe they are going to allow or
> encourage CDs to follow that rule again. Not sure, I don't really track
> what they do very closely anymore.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Glenn Hatfield <mailto:randy10926 at comtekmail.com>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
>
> You can fly low slow and close in if you desire. The box that you fly in
> is smaller for pattern than IMAC. You get too close in and the box gets
> really small. The box is about the right size for a 2 meter at 150 to
> 170 Meters parallel to the flight line. You might be able to fly a 50
> sized at 125 to 150 meters. At least I do.
> Randy
>
> --- "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:51:24 -0500
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
> I’m new and saw my first contests last year. My first impression was “Why
> do they fly so high?” Then I wondered what would happen if I flew low,
> slow and close in with a Oxalys 50? Still wondering.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of mike
> mueller
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:14 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
> You know what, Keith is right. We have a really good flyer that comes to
> one of our contests about once a year. He flys his whole sequence right
> off the deck like a bat out of hell. He's really good and can pull it off.
> The deal excites everyone. It's a blast to watch.
>
> Keith Black <tkeithb at comcast.net> wrote:
> Reading the comments here brings the following to my attention.
> Loud "ballistic missile" pattern = Huge popularity.
> Quite graceful pattern flying 150 m away = Boring.
> Huge Loud IMAC planes flying 3D = Huge popularity.
>
> I bet if we add an "Extreme Pattern" class where we do high slow rolls and
> snaps ten feed off the deck right over the runway we'd become much more
> popular again. ;-)
> Keith Black
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Richards <mailto:bob at toprudder.com>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, Ma! rch 02, 2006 8:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
> DogHunt on points made?
> Larry,
> Good points.
> A little history, as best as I can remember it.
> At one time, Pattern was the top of the heap. I remember the first RC
> Modeler magazine I bought (circa 1972) had coverage of the Masters
> competition. RC Modeler carried coverage of the large pattern contests
> back then. At some point (I don't remember when, exactly) RCM (aka Don
> Dewey) became ticked off at the AMA because AMA chose to publish their own
> magazine. This happened when American Aircraft Modeler magazine went out
> of business, they had been publishing the AMA News in the back of their
> magazine. It seemed to me that RCM no longer covered pattern events after
> that. There was a big push by RCM to promote the "Sport Flyers Associat!
> ion", anything AMA sanctioned was left out. (This was my observation).
> Along came the TOC, which actually started out with pattern models. Again,
> t! here was coverage. But, then the TOC went the scale aerobatics route
> (and extra points for biplanes, and extra points for mammoth planes -- the
> rest is history).
> Pattern is no longer the premiere event that it used to be. I think it all
> goes back to the WOW factor. There also seemed to be a period where
> pattern flyers were looked down upon, usually labeled "snobs". Thank
> goodnes that does not seem to be the case anymore.
> I think the change from loud, ballistic missle type flying to the
> turnaround style now has changed the general modeling perception, although
> it took several years for the general modeling public to recognize the
> change.
> However, the turnaround format seems to have had both a positive and
> negati! ve effect. The general modeling public respects pattern more as a
> result, but it also SEEMS to be a barrier for new participants. Again,
> this is just my opinion.
>
> Bob R.
>
>
> Lisa & Larry <lld613 at psci.net> wrote:
> Eric Henderson wrote**** If we knew why we could probably fix it. ****
> From my viewpoint trying to get into pattern around 1999 was a major
> challenge.
> I was first introduced to Pattern in Southern California in 1985 when I
> went to watch a contest. It took another 15 years to have the time and
> money to do it. For me lack of time was because of my service in the US
> Navy. Difficult to fly when your out at sea and they don’t fit too well in
> a locker on the ship…vbg
> ! It took me from 1999 to 2002 to find somebody that new what pattern was.
> Everyone new IMAC and could point me to a pilot that competed, but not
> Pattern.
> What does this mean? Either I’m not a very smart cookie or Pattern is a
> very well kept secret (not much has changed since 1999). So how is it that
> a person that new pattern existed took the better part of 4 years to
> finally talk to someone that could help get started?
> Over the last seven years we watched IMAC ARF’s take off and sell like hot
> cakes, only in the last couple years have we seen Pattern ARF’s on the
> market.
> I went to an RC Airshow north of Bloomington, IN around the spring of
> 2002. I watched a pilot fly an Extra for an! IMAC Sportsman Class Demo. I
> approached him and asked him about Pattern and how to get started. His
> response was clear, “Why would you want to fly a toy model plane when you
> can fly a model of a real plane and do the same thing!” Aside from an
> instant turn off from IMAC, it ! set the tone of perception between IMAC
> and Pattern. I will most likely start competing in IMAC this year as well
> as pattern. Mostly because there are more IMAC contests in a 5 hour drive
> than there are pattern from where I’m located.
> If you compare IMAC and Pattern I don’t think the dog hunts in most of the
> arguments I’ve seen posted in the last few years as they reappear from
> time to time.
> 1) IMAC and Pattern planes compare in cost. (That dog won’t hunt on
> this point)
> 2) 2) IMAC and Pattern take the same ! amount of practice time
> to be competitive in a given class. (That dog won’t hunt on this point)
> 3) IMAC and Pattern meets are relatively the same driving distance for
> most. (That dog won’t hunt! on this point)
> 4) I can find more IMAC contests than Pattern contests (Dog might be
> tracking something on this one)
> 5) Sport pilots know more about IMAC than they do pattern, this is
> speculative but I believe it’s the case. (Dog might be tracking something
> on this one)
> We need to do a better job marketing Pattern. I think that IMAC has done
> great in this area. The TOC helped IMAC grow and get the word out through
> coverage of a big event. I think we can see a decline in IMAC since the
> last TOC. I have not seen or heard of a big contest that gets the
> publicity that the TOC received. Even the FAI World Pattern contest is not
> covered! as well as the TOC was.
> How do you guys view these points?
> Larry Diamond
> NSRCA 3083
> PS…What Eric does for Pattern in his reporting to magazines is probably
> one of the key factors that he! lps pattern stay afloat. Thanks Eric….
>
>
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