[NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Longitevity

Mon Feb 27 07:06:55 AKST 2006

Hey Bob,
The healthy schizophrenia you describe (judge's hat versus pilot's hat) is a necessary part of being a good judge.
For example: I have a dearly held notion about what a proper flying style is ... at least for me.
It goes out the window, when I am in the chair. It must.

We do all tend to trip over our other left foot, when we make the less-than-graceful change from one hat to the other. 
After all, when you give someone advice, after having judged them the last round, are you talking about what the pilot should show you, or what to do with the sticks?

Funny, I knew what you meant too!

Dean

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 10:48 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Longitevity

Guys,

Let me set the record straight on this, it seems everyone is confused about what I was originally trying to say.

I never said, and never felt, that there was impressionist judging affecting my scores, either at local contests, or the Nats. When I flew badly, my scores reflected it, and when I flew well, I got good scores. It did not matter if I were flying an outdated design, a Cap 21, or even a Miss Martha.

The only time I heard anyone say that I would not get the scores I deserved (FUTURE TENSE) was when a fellow competitor was trying to give me advice about what I should fly. Seems that when they were wearing the pilot's hat, they felt equipment mattered (more than it should, anyway). I'm glad they did not seem to feel that way when they were wearing the judge's hat.

My point, that I was not able to eloquently convey, is that we,! as pattern veterans, tend to leave the general modeling public with the impression that the latest, most expensive equipment is needed to be competitve.  Even as we are trying to tell them that expensive equipment is not needed, they are looking at what we bring to the field and say to themselves, "Yeah, right!".

Now, I am sure impressionist judging may exist, but I never felt like I was a victim of it, regardless of what I was flying. Thank goodness!

Bob R.

vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:

Those "iimpressionist  judges" need to review the judging tape at least three times.  As always, judge education and training are the best approach.

Vicente  

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net> 

Bob,
Talk about confused.  Neither you nor I mentioned the Nats so I have no idea where that connection was made.  I really didn't think you had the answer to my question because in essence you were asking the same thing.  Sure, some planes draw nicer lines and appear more stable and paced than others, and I agree that you can get this without spending a lot of $$ or buying the plane of the season.  I am agreeing that when judges begin docking a pilot points because he didn't bring the "right" plane then they are being impressionist judges.  When a guy that usually finishes middle of the pack gets a 2 point downgrade and the leader does the same thing for a 1 point downgrade, that's impressionist judging.  At my last contest I got a 10 and a 5 from two FAI judges on a humptybump.  At least one, maybe both were impressionist judging.  
  I think your post about pattern longevity is about promoting the attitude that we should be encouraging to others and to curtail frustrating new pilots by giving them false rules to follow.
Hope that makes it clear as mud :)
-Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob  <mailto:bob at toprudder.com> Richards 
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Longitevity

Lance,

I'm not sure what you meant by your reply, I was not complaining about the judging at the Nats. I was just saying that there are pattern fliers out there with the attitude that you have to have xyz equipment to be competitive. Thats fine if they want to have that attitude, the problem lies in the fact that they really believe it and spread it to others as gospel. That, I am sure, puts some people off and keeps them from trying pattern.

I always tell people that you don't need an expensive plane to be competitve. Sure, a lot of pe! ople may say that to prospective pattern flyers, but it doesn't look good when that person is flying very expensive equipment.  I'm proud of the fact that I practiced what I preached, did very well while doing it, and had a lot of fun at the same time.

I don't think a $1000 composite airframe will be in my future any time soon.

Bob R.

Lance Van Nostrand <patterndude at comcast.net> wrote:

so how do you get an "impressionist" affected judge to be more objective?  Seems that kind of person is just the sort not interested in those pesky little things called "rules".  
--Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob  <mailto:bob at toprudder.com> Richards 
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Longitevity

You say "the enemy is us". I agree. I feel compelled to share a couple of my own experiences.

When I got started (seriously) in pattern, I did so with a Cap 21. I had several of the local pattern flyers (well meaning) tell me that I wo! uld never get the scores I deserved flying a non-pattern plane. If I had ever felt that was true, I would have dropped out of pattern. I flew that plane for two years, in Advanced and Masters. I did well, I won just over half the contests in which I flew, and managed to win the district points championship in '92.

I decided to! fly a pattern plane in '93, and ended up with a Hansen Runaround. 
For me, it was a big step up. However, it did not have a pipe tunnel, and I decided to use a standard OS 1.20 with stock stubby muffler for most of the season. I went to the '93 Nats with this plane.  I had problems in the early rounds, but for the fifth round I flew t! he absolute best flight I have ever flown. I was feeling great! About 30 minutes after I flew, a rain started that cut short the flying that day. I had a large tent just behind the flight line, so most of the judges and scribes ended up under my tent. One of the scribes, a wel! l known FAI flyer (that probably subscribes to this list) looked at my plane and told me that I would never get the scores I deserve, "flying an outdated design". I told him that I was very pleased with the flight I just had, and he said "you did not get good scores on that flight". I did not show it, but it just ticked me off. I know it sounds like sour ! grapes, but I decided that if I did not get good scores that round,! I would quit pattern. I ended up winning that round by 65 normalized points. Looking at the tare sheets, I got great scores from all the judges that round. Now, I don't like to use the phrase "pattern snob", but to this day that is the opinion I have of that FAI flyer. 

Now I know that a very small percentage of the pattern flyers are snobs, but they typically are the ones that are more vocal and more in the limelight than others, unfortunately.

(climbing down off my soapbox).

Bob R.

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From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Longitevity
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 03:47:32 +0000

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