[NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Rex LESHER
trexlesh at msn.com
Sun Dec 17 13:52:07 AKST 2006
Jim
I didn't really go on with the idea, but it sounds like we're on the same page. A low pressure on the back side, especially with a fan, would
induce air to flow through the motor. If that could be done, it wouldn't matter about having the fan up front. I was too busy trying to get the new plane to fly right and contest season was upon me.... I think it could be done in a very light fashion. In fact, if it actually works,
the backplate and spinner could be lightened to the point that overall, the setup would be lighter than what we now have.... Every other
backplate spoke could be removed and the rest lightened. I did some test grinding on a ruined backplate and spinner, and found that I could remove around half the weight of the assembly, and it would still be more than strong enough for our purpose....
I've played with making the tunnel and found that it would be fairly simple to make it, and use air from the cheek cowls for ramming air through it. The problem I ran into, was that once I had it made and installed, I couldn't get the motor installed because of interference
with the firewall, and being able to get at the mounting bolts for the motor. I quit on the project and it has just sat there. Now, I've
figured out that all I had to do, was saw the ducting in half, lengthwise. Install the motor and then tape the bottom half of the ducting in
place. DUH!!! I think this duct work alone would work without any type of fan. it would force a lot of air around the motor can and
through it because the ducting would be sealed all the way around and air would be rammed through the chamber it creates.
I guess I've got the talking part done!!!! I'll have to get my butt in gear and actually try it!!!
You've sparked my interest, keep us informed...
Rex
----- Original Message -----
From: J.Oddino<mailto:joddino at socal.rr.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Rex,
Keep up the good work. You may have a product in the making. I'll try a shroud to pull in air from the cheek cowls and maybe a fan on the backend to pull the air through. Create low pressure on the outlet.
Jim O
----- Original Message -----
From: Rex LESHER<mailto:trexlesh at msn.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
George
It's kind of a long story, but I know a guy that designs/builds props for tug boats.. I got the corkscrew prop idea from him. The whole idea
behind it is to force the air to the center of the backplate. The tapered spokes made it a lot easier to help accomplish the shape. It's
just been an experiment to see if it would work. I haven't done any sort of elaborate testing. I have put it on a drill motor and spun it. It definitely moves air. I also put it on my magnetic balancer outside in a breeze, and it spun right up on its own. The whole problem, in my opinion, is that there is a lot of resistance to airflow within the motor itself. As it spins, I'm sure it creates a sort of vortex within, and makes
it resistant to internal airflow. Thus, the need for creating a high pressure area in front , and forcing the air through.
The only other thing that I've been thinking about doing is to form a tunnel around the motor, and force feed the air through it via the cheek
cowls. But, right now, I'm thinking it would be much easier to just get the EVO motor. I could use the extra power... lol
Actually the standard 30-10 has plenty of power, but in the higher winds, I'm really pushing the motor to its limits. The extra few hundred rpms and the ability to turn a higher pitch prop with the EVO would be very beneficial.
Rex
----- Original Message -----
From: george w. kennie<mailto:geobet at gis.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Rex,
Sounds similar to a small outrunner that I have in which the cooling holes in the end-bell of the can are drilled at a 45 degee angle in order to scoop some air into the core of the motor.
The spinner fan-blade/vane thing probably has a cross-over point where the force generated by the full compliment of vanes is offset by the larger holes realized by removing
spokes. Of course this could be bench measured by run-testing the two variations blowing against a spring loaded sail positioned behind the motor and recording the deflection angle.
G.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rex LESHER<mailto:trexlesh at msn.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Wayne
Take a look at the D8 website, electrics link.... It has photos of my experiment. I actually did more than just shaping like a prop. I actually carved the spokes into a curve on the back side, similar to the prop on a tug boat. The curved spoke is placed "just so" over the openings
in the motor. The cupped portion of the spoke forces air directly into the motor. The curve in the carved portion in the spoke is intended to force the air towards the hub by trapping the air further out on the spoke first. The spinner is louvered, somewhat like a squirrel cage fan.
The intention of the louver is to "chop" the air and force feed it into the spinner, creating a high pressure area that will feed air to the prop shaped
backplate. To be honest, after doing all this work, I was somewhat disappointed with the results. Turned out, that I didn't have enough cooling
exhaust outlet area in the aft fuselage. After I pretty much doubled that opening, all my cooling problems went away. This summer will tell for
sure as to wether or not it works as well as intended. Last summer was spent actually getting to this point....
I'm contemplating removing every other spoke on the back plate, but as I said, I'm going to wait and see how my temps are running as the summer heat gets here. Like Dave, I'm concerned with removing too much material. If the spokes are left "stock", it's not a problem. But, with as much material as I have removed, there might be a concern. I'm guessing that it would be ok. I use a nylon 10-32 bolt to hold the spinner to the
adapter, and it's just snugged up, so there isn't much pressure against the backplate. We aren't using using a starter on the cone, so there doesn't
have to be much structural strength there. Just make sure you do a good rebalance after you get done with whatever carving you do....
Rex
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Reaville<mailto:dkrev at shaw.ca>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Hi Wayne
Actually Chad and Rex (I think???) had already done that but I was a little concerned with leaving sufficient material after the spoke removal :-) so I decided not to. I am not sure just how much additional flow would be created but it's certainly worth considering.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Galligan<mailto:wgalligan at texasairnet.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Dave,
You could go one step further and grind an airfoil in the remaining spokes to aid in pulling the air in.
Wayne G.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Reaville<mailto:dkrev at shaw.ca>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Re: Outrunner Cooling
FWIW I have made some other changes to the spinner that have helped a little. I removed three of the spokes of my backplate to assist in weight loss :-) as well as increase flow through the motor. Picture here http://members.shaw.ca/patternwestnews/pictures/planes/tttrim.htm<http://members.shaw.ca/patternwestnews/pictures/planes/tttrim.htm>
I am also going to make some minor changes to the spinner itself by increasing the prop cut-out forward. These openings coupled with the ducting that Chad used towards the rear of the motor should provide adequate cooling for the Plett. I understand the Evo has bigger openings to assist in cooling but I think it's very important to make sure that the backplate spokes, when mounted, align properly to allow unrestricted flow through the openings. It's possible to block the flow if improperly installed or if it rotates on it's own.
I have seen Rex's spinner in action and it appears to me to assist in cooling.
Dave R
----- Original Message -----
From: Rex LESHER<mailto:trexlesh at msn.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Hi guys, I've been without power for the last couple days.... The mods I did to the spinner are on the D8 website. I'm not sure how effective my process really is. I can tell you that it works much better than not having any opening at all. I did that experiment.... Chad touched on the real problem and I believe he is right on. The spokes in the backplate and the closed sides between the openings in the spinner create too much resistance (spinning disc) for the appropriate amount of air to get directly into the motor. I first tried just opening the sides of the spinner, and used that for my baseline. Then, I used the modification as shown on the D8 website. I figure that I dropped somewhere around 20 degrees on average. After a few flights, I took the spinner off, and the motor cooled much better. That tells me that in order to get the greatest cooling, you'd have to create a high pressure area in front of the motor...
Now, I'm playing with ducting, forcing air around the can.... Time will tell, if I don't demag the motor!!!
Rex
----- Original Message -----
From: AtwoodDon at aol.com<mailto:AtwoodDon at aol.com>
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners
Jim,
I think Rex Lesher modified a True Turn spinner to have 'inlet slits' to pull air into the spinner and back thru the motor. I don't know if there were any tests to indicate if was effective. Maybe Rex can comment here.
I also believe there are some NASA airflow studies that indicate the area around the prop hub and some small amount of the prop as well as the spinner create an cone like airflow around that area that basically prevents air from entering the spinner slots, etc.
Hacker has a fan like attachment on the back of the large outrunners than creates a negative pressure area inside the motor and draws air in thru the front of the motor for cooling. there have been some tests retrofitting a similar fan on the back of other outrunners with similar success. Basically a trade off in weight for cooling effectiveness.
As you know, I run an AXI 5330/F3A with the chin cowl opening ducted to divert incoming air upward across the AXI. It seems to work even on the hottest summer days. No air from the cheek cowls is ducted toward the motor, it just passes thru toward the ESC and batteries.
Don
In a message dated 12/15/2006 4:14:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, joddino at socal.rr.com writes:
It would seem the best way to cool outrunners that have holes in the case on the end that faces the nose ring, would be to bring air in through the spinner and through holes in the backplate. Wondering if anyone has really thought about the optimum design. I can picture internal vanes but perhaps cutting off the nose of the spinner and leaving a big hole would be adequate. Anyone tried anything like this?
Jim O
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