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<DIV
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<DIV>Jim</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I didn't really go on with the idea, but it sounds like we're on the same
page. A low pressure on the back side, especially with a fan, would </DIV>
<DIV>induce air to flow through the motor. If that could be done, it
wouldn't matter about having the fan up front. I was too busy trying to
get the new plane to fly right and contest season was upon me.... I think
it could be done in a very light fashion. In fact, if it actually
works,</DIV>
<DIV>the backplate and spinner could be lightened to the point that overall, the
setup would be lighter than what we now have.... Every other </DIV>
<DIV>backplate spoke could be removed and the rest lightened. I did some
test grinding on a ruined backplate and spinner, and found that I could remove
around half the weight of the assembly, and it would still be more than strong
enough for our purpose....</DIV>
<DIV>I've played with making the tunnel and found that it would be fairly simple
to make it, and use air from the cheek cowls for ramming air through it.
The problem I ran into, was that once I had it made and installed, I couldn't
get the motor installed because of interference</DIV>
<DIV>with the firewall, and being able to get at the mounting bolts for the
motor. I quit on the project and it has just sat there. Now, I've
</DIV>
<DIV>figured out that all I had to do, was saw the ducting in half,
lengthwise. Install the motor and then tape the bottom half of the ducting
in</DIV>
<DIV>place. DUH!!! I think this duct work alone would work
without any type of fan. it would force a lot of air around the motor can
and </DIV>
<DIV>through it because the ducting would be sealed all the way around and air
would be rammed through the chamber it creates.</DIV>
<DIV>I guess I've got the talking part done!!!! I'll have to get my
butt in gear and actually try it!!!</DIV>
<DIV>You've sparked my interest, keep us informed...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:joddino@socal.rr.com
href="mailto:joddino@socal.rr.com">J.Oddino</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 17, 2006 2:16
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling
outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rex,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keep up the good work. You may have a
product in the making. I'll try a shroud to pull in air from the cheek
cowls and maybe a fan on the backend to pull the air through. Create low
pressure on the outlet. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim O</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex
LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 17, 2006 10:57
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Cooling
outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Lucida Sans">
<DIV>George</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It's kind of a long story, but I know a guy that designs/builds props
for tug boats.. I got the corkscrew prop idea from him. The
whole idea</DIV>
<DIV>behind it is to force the air to the center of the
backplate. The tapered spokes made it a lot easier to help accomplish
the shape. It's</DIV>
<DIV>just been an experiment to see if it would work. I haven't done
any sort of elaborate testing. I have put it on a drill motor and spun
it. It definitely moves air. I also put it on my magnetic
balancer outside in a breeze, and it spun right up on its own. The
whole problem, in my opinion, is that there is a lot of resistance to
airflow within the motor itself. As it spins, I'm sure it creates a
sort of vortex within, and makes </DIV>
<DIV>it resistant to internal airflow. Thus, the need for creating a
high pressure area in front , and forcing the air through.</DIV>
<DIV>The only other thing that I've been thinking about doing is to form a
tunnel around the motor, and force feed the air through it via the
cheek</DIV>
<DIV>cowls. But, right now, I'm thinking it would be much easier
to just get the EVO motor. I could use the extra power...
lol</DIV>
<DIV>Actually the standard 30-10 has plenty of power, but in the higher
winds, I'm really pushing the motor to its limits. The extra few
hundred rpms and the ability to turn a higher pitch prop with the EVO
would be very beneficial.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:geobet@gis.net
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 17, 2006 10:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rex,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sounds similar to a small outrunner that I
have in which the cooling holes in the end-bell of the can are drilled at
a 45 degee angle in order to scoop some air into the core of the motor.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The spinner fan-blade/vane thing probably has
a cross-over point where the force generated by the full compliment of
vanes is offset by the larger holes realized by removing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
spokes. Of course this could be
bench measured by run-testing the two variations blowing against a
spring loaded sail positioned behind the motor and recording the
deflection angle. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex
LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 17, 2006
12:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Lucida Sans">
<DIV>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Take a look at the D8 website, electrics link.... It has
photos of my experiment. I actually did more than just shaping
like a prop. I actually carved the spokes into a curve on the back
side, similar to the prop on a tug boat. The curved spoke is
placed "just so" over the openings</DIV>
<DIV>in the motor. The cupped portion of the spoke forces air
directly into the motor. The curve in the carved portion in
the spoke is intended to force the air towards the hub by
trapping the air further out on the spoke first. The spinner
is louvered, somewhat like a squirrel cage fan.</DIV>
<DIV>The intention of the louver is to "chop" the air and force feed it
into the spinner, creating a high pressure area that will feed air to
the prop shaped</DIV>
<DIV>backplate. To be honest, after doing all this
work, I was somewhat disappointed with the results. Turned
out, that I didn't have enough cooling</DIV>
<DIV>exhaust outlet area in the aft fuselage. After I pretty much
doubled that opening, all my cooling problems went away. This
summer will tell for </DIV>
<DIV>sure as to wether or not it works as well as intended. Last
summer was spent actually getting to this point....</DIV>
<DIV>I'm contemplating removing every other spoke on the back plate, but
as I said, I'm going to wait and see how my temps are running as the
summer heat gets here. Like Dave, I'm concerned with removing too
much material. If the spokes are left "stock", it's not a
problem. But, with as much material as I have removed, there might
be a concern. I'm guessing that it would be ok. I use a
nylon 10-32 bolt to hold the spinner to the</DIV>
<DIV>adapter, and it's just snugged up, so there isn't much pressure
against the backplate. We aren't using using a starter on the
cone, so there doesn't </DIV>
<DIV>have to be much structural strength there. Just make sure you
do a good rebalance after you get done with whatever carving you
do....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca href="mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca">Dave
Reaville</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 17, 2006
8:53 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hi Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Actually Chad and Rex (I think???) had already
done that but I was a little concerned with leaving
sufficient material after the spoke removal :-) so I decided
not to. I am not sure just how much additional flow would be created
but it's certainly worth considering. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dave</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:wgalligan@texasairnet.com
href="mailto:wgalligan@texasairnet.com">Wayne Galligan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 16,
2006 8:23 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You could go one step further and grind
an airfoil in the remaining spokes to aid in pulling the air
in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne G. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca href="mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca">Dave
Reaville</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 16,
2006 2:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Re: Outrunner Cooling</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>FWIW I have made some other changes to the
spinner that have helped a little. I removed three of the spokes
of my backplate to assist in weight loss :-) as well as increase
flow through the motor. Picture here </FONT><FONT
face=Arial><A
title=http://members.shaw.ca/patternwestnews/pictures/planes/tttrim.htm
href="http://members.shaw.ca/patternwestnews/pictures/planes/tttrim.htm">http://members.shaw.ca/patternwestnews/pictures/planes/tttrim.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I am also going to make some minor changes
to the spinner itself by increasing the prop cut-out forward.
These openings coupled with the ducting that Chad
used towards the rear of the motor should provide adequate
cooling for the Plett. I understand the Evo has bigger openings to
assist in cooling but I think it's very important to make sure
that the backplate spokes, when mounted, align properly to
allow unrestricted flow through the openings. It's possible to
block the flow if improperly installed or if it rotates on it's
own.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have seen Rex's spinner in action
and it appears to me to assist in cooling.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dave R</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:trexlesh@msn.com
href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December
16, 2006 9:52 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV>Hi guys, I've been without power for the last couple
days.... The mods I did to the spinner are on the D8
website. I'm not sure how effective my process really
is. I can tell you that it works much better than not
having any opening at all. I did that experiment....
Chad touched on the real problem and I believe he is right
on. The spokes in the backplate and the closed sides
between the openings in the spinner create too much resistance
(spinning disc) for the appropriate amount of air to get
directly into the motor. I first tried just opening
the sides of the spinner, and used that for my baseline.
Then, I used the modification as shown on the D8 website.
I figure that I dropped somewhere around 20 degrees on
average. After a few flights, I took the spinner off, and
the motor cooled much better. That tells me that in order
to get the greatest cooling, you'd have to create a high
pressure area in front of the motor... </DIV>
<DIV>Now, I'm playing with ducting, forcing air around the
can.... Time will tell, if I don't demag the
motor!!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:AtwoodDon@aol.com
href="mailto:AtwoodDon@aol.com">AtwoodDon@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December
15, 2006 6:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Cooling outrunners</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>Jim, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think Rex Lesher modified a True Turn spinner to have
'inlet slits' to pull air into the spinner and back thru the
motor. I don't know if there were any tests to indicate
if was effective. Maybe Rex can comment here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I also believe there are some NASA airflow studies that
indicate the area around the prop hub and some small amount of
the prop as well as the spinner create an cone like airflow
around that area that basically prevents air from entering the
spinner slots, etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hacker has a fan like attachment on the back of the large
outrunners than creates a negative pressure area inside the
motor and draws air in thru the front of the motor for
cooling. there have been some tests retrofitting a
similar fan on the back of other outrunners with similar
success. Basically a trade off in weight for cooling
effectiveness.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As you know, I run an AXI 5330/F3A with the chin cowl
opening ducted to divert incoming air upward across the
AXI. It seems to work even on the hottest summer
days. No air from the cheek cowls is ducted toward the
motor, it just passes thru toward the ESC and batteries.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 12/15/2006 4:14:26 P.M. Pacific
Standard Time, joddino@socal.rr.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>It would seem the best way to cool outrunners that have
holes in the case on the end that faces the nose ring,
would be to bring air in through the spinner and through
holes in the backplate. Wondering if anyone has really
thought about the optimum design. I can picture
internal vanes but perhaps cutting off the nose of the
spinner and leaving a big hole would be adequate.
Anyone tried anything like this?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim
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