[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
twtaylor
twtaylor at ftc-i.net
Wed Aug 16 06:39:26 AKDT 2006
Just like my question about the speed of the aircraft, if it's smooth and
graceful in the flying, there's no room for a down/up grade for points due
to my flight being 20 mph faster than the next guys. Yet someone says that
slower is more grace full so it should score better. I give up.
_____
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean Pappas
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:34 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
Point well made, Terry! The wordsmithing can almost always use help, and
even with our best efforts, it's going to be an iterative process.
Do we have any good contract writers out there? If we take one of those, and
cross him/her with an English teacher, we could breed our own race of rules
writers ...
Matt is right, part of the art of wind correction is in hiding the fixes. If
the judge didn't see it, then it just ain't! Everything else is details.
later Friends,
Dean
Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Terry Brox
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:26 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
Actually, yes, but I was also trying to prove the point that there is a gray
area in our rules that people only assume. The fact is, I cant find anything
that would directly address that kind of correction. Only the the
description of beginning and ending with a straight line. If I were a
lawyer/argumentive type, I think there would be quite an argument that could
be raised. If there is something in the rule book that does address this,
tell where to look other than the normal "smooth and gracefull" section.
Nice to see the list busy again. LOL
----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Pappas <mailto:d.pappas at kodeos.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
You're being funny ... right?
Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Terry Brox
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:14 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
Would that mean that the "dead" zone between the exit line of one maneuver
and the entry line of another, if there is sufficient distance, could be
used to reposition the craft on a new heading. In othere words, turn 90
degrees to the flight path then back 90 degrees as to move out or in if
necessary? From this, one would assume the "dead" zone should not be judged.
----- Original Message -----
From: george w. kennie <mailto:geobet at gis.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
<<<Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin
then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and
are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum
of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.>>>
I think what's being slightly overlooked is the word "minimum". We used to
be required to call "the box" at the pole, (which is the way it should still
be done, but I can't change that) but some ill informed people had that
requirement altered. Why do you think that the word "minimum" is inserted at
that point in the wording? It's not because that's where the box needs to
be called, ( the box can be called at any point between the pole and the 15
meter point) it's because the entry and exit lines, for every maneuver, are
required to be 15 meters in length. This "minimum' requirement specifies
that this is so, if not by pronouncement then by inference. To me this is
quite clear, however, the thing that we can't substantiate even by inference
is whether or not the exit line from one maneuver can also serve as the
entry line for the upcoming maneuver, eliminating the perception of the need
for 30 meters between maneuvers. I have seen instances where this
requirement created a very real test of the box constraints and would like
to see a resolution of this particular conflict. My feeling is that a
superimposition should be acceptable, but that would have to appear in
writing somewhere.
Georgie
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Ramsey <mailto:don.ramsey at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll Opposite. Center is defined
only after the maneuver ends. Where did it start, where did it end and only
then, was the entire maneuver centered?
I'm currently gathering information for the next year's judging materials so
this discussion is great. Interesting points on entry and exit lines. The
rules are not clear. Consider this, the box entry must be called 15 meters
before the first maneuver begins. Each maneuver begins and ends with a
straight line. Here's the quotes from the rules:
Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin
then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and
are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum
of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.
Let's take that a little further. It seems to say, since a line is part of
the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the box entry should be done
30 meters before maneuvering starts. I don't think that was the intent of
the rule.
and more on lines:
Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line.
When no line is flown between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming
maneuver should be downgraded by two (2) points.
All lines within a maneuver have a beginning and end which define
their length. The length of a line should only be graded when a maneuver
contains several lines with a given relationship, as in a square loop.
I don't think entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their
lengths and if they don't they should not be used for centering
determination. Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver can and are
often different lengths that would imply those centered maneuvers where they
are different should be downgraded. A good example would be a turnaround of
a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver then a stall turn for the other
turnaround. Should the centered maneuver be downgraded in this case since
the entry and exit lines are of different lengths? Also, the maneuver
descriptions never say, "Model draws a horizontal line, (remainder of
description) ...." The rules never say the entry and exit lines must be 15
meters only that they must be there. The implication is, entry/exit lines
should not be used in determining centering.
Must there be 30 meters between maneuvers? I disagree with Derek here.
Here are the rules on lines.
"(As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are
always judged)."
then later
"The judge should form an image of the forthcoming maneuver based on using
the straight and level entry identified in section D, Judging Individual
Maneuvers, as a reference. The absence of a definite entry into a maneuver
increases the difficulty of judging its precision and competitors will
recognize this as justification for downgrading. The straight and level exit
from a maneuver is one of the more valuable portions of a maneuver in
evaluating how well the intended course of the maneuver was followed.
Therefore, the absence of a well defined straight and level exit should also
result in downgrading. In all cases, straight and level flight means flight
parallel to the flightline, at a constant altitude, and with wings level."
Section D does not include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears
there only need be a definite or well defined line into and out of
maneuvers. That length is not specified. There is also nothing to preclude
the exit line from one maneuver being the entry line into the next. Again,
the maneuver descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in their text.
This needs to be corrected in the next rule cycle.
Sorry for the rambling,
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> Straight from the rule book on all counts. The 15 meter rule for straight
> line applies to entering and leaving the box as well. Refer to page 72.
>
> http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp
>
> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
begin
> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and
> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
minimum
> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
> point.
>
> If there isn't a defined straight line between maneuvers then the upcoming
> maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see my comment below). The length of
that
> line should be 30+ meters in order to receive no downgrade.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
> you didn't read the whole thing I posted.... Looks like you responded to
the
> part before "sorry"
>
> You have a 15 meter straight line definition... I'm not sure if thats from
> the rulebook or not... That would be appx 7 fuselage lengths.
>
> But.... does that just apply to the enter and leave box? or does there
have
> to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the un-judged corrections
> between them... there's not much room for track corrections this way)
> straight line between consecutive maneuvers? Or is the way I have
thought
> it was correct... no defined straight line lenght between maneuvers, just
a
> definite straight line established?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>> Fred,
>>
>> If what you say is the case then every maneuver would be impossible to
>> judge
>> and that is why we have the the following:
>>
>> Page 72:
>>
>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
>> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
>> begin
>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
and
>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
>> minimum
>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.
>>
>> Page 77:
>>
>> . Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal
>> line.
>> When no line is flown
>> between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be
>> downgraded
>> by two (2) points.
>>
>>
>> The generally accepted length of that line is 15 meters.
>>
>> So add 15 meters to the beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you
>> can
>> figure out the center for those maneuvers that have different rolling
>> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by an opposite slow roll.
>>
>>
>> ---Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>
>> OK.. then its impossible to downgrade THIS maneuver for centering if the
>> straight lines are part of it.... Because there is no definite attitude
>> of
>> the model that can be associated with center, and the line start and end
>> can't be defined, since there's also straight line exit from the previous
>> maneuver and entry to the following.
>>
>> Sorry.
>>
>> Has to be start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference and
>> assumed same length straight at each end. (which can be just one fuselage
>> length... maybe less since the length is not defined...)
>>
>> If you don't assume same length straight lines... you can't judge center
>> on
>> anything.... even a simple loop.
>>
>> You can purposely shoot for roll rates that center the inverted.... but
>> as
>> noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate than the rate
for
>> the 2/2. which would be likely put put you somewhere in the slow roll
>> portion at center.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>
>>
>>> The entire maneuver is judged including the straight lines. Each
>>> maneuver
>>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with a straight line.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
Haury
>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55 PM
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>
>>> Actually, while the straight line "before" and "after" the maneuver is
>>> required the names (of the lines) themselves define that they are not
>>> "included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the aircraft begins to roll
>>> (for the first element) and end when it stops rolling (the final
>>> element).
>>>
>>> Earl
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 9:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not necessarily - since the maneuver is made up of two different
rolling
>>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the center of the two components
>>>> including the straight line before and after the maneuver. Since the
>>>> 2/2
>>>> point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver
>>>> will
>>>> start early and the 2 point roll will finish long before center prior
to
>>>> the
>>>> slow roll beginning. What the pilot/judge needs to do is visualize
>>>> where
>>>> the maneuver starts including the straight flight portion and where it
>>>> will
>>>> end after the slow roll including the straight flight portion and
>>>> position
>>>> the maneuver accordingly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> jivey61 at bellsouth.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM
>>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>>
>>>> I am directing this to Don Ramsey.
>>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt roll,slow roll opposite. It seems it
>>>> would
>>>> be between the 2/2pt and the slow roll opposite.
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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