[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20

Tue Aug 15 08:01:34 AKDT 2006

No, my intent was not to downgrade a maneuver twice for not being centered
if the entry/exit lines are not the same.  My point is that in order for a
center maneuver that is not symmetrical to be centered, such as the 2/2
followed by opposite slow roll, the entire maneuver should include entry and
exit lines when one considers if it is centered or not.  A centered loop is
centered regardless of entry/exit lines however they should both be there in
order to score maximum points.  How can one possibly give a 10 to a perfect
loop if the exit line was non-existent, especially if our rules state that
all maneuver start and end with a straight line.

On 8/15/06, Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at cox.net> wrote:
>
>  Derek,
>
> You have the wording on your side in one area.  I agree about the 15
> meters being the accepted standard.  Consider this intrepretation, for the
> maneuver there must be a definite entry/exit line and for centering there
> must be a line but let it approach 0 meters length.  It seems if there is a
> line on both ends its length makes no difference for centering purposes.
>
> In your interpretation:
> - if a entry/exit line is not present on a centered maneuver it must be
> downgraded for centering.
> - in the case of no entry line the maneuver is downgraded twice for the
> same error.  Once for centering and 2 points for no entry line.    I don't
> think that is correct.
> - no exit line would be downgraded for centering unless the maneuver is
> offset in the maneuvering portion.  In this case I don't think the judge
> would ever get it correct.
> - this really seems to open a can of worms that would cause many
> inconsistencies between judges.
>
> dr
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>  *From:* Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> *To:* 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:39 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
> True.... the rules never state that entry and exit lines should be a
> minimum of 15 meters - that is why I stated "generally accepted" since
> everywhere else it states that a 15 meter line should be present before the
> 1st maneuver and so on... to me a 15 meter line is nothing (extremely
> short) when a plane is flying at 60 mph (or faster)  -  but we need to
> include a defined length as part of each maneuver - and they should be equal
> lengths in order for the maneuver to be deemed "symmetrical".
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Don Ramsey
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:51 AM
> *To:* NSRCA Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>  First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll Opposite.  Center is
> defined only after the maneuver ends. Where did it start, where did it end
> and only then, was the entire maneuver centered?
>
> I'm currently gathering information for the next year's judging materials
> so this discussion is great.  Interesting points on entry and exit lines.
> The rules are not clear.  Consider this, the box entry must be called 15
> meters before the first maneuver begins.  Each maneuver begins and ends with
> a straight line. Here's the quotes from the rules:
>
> *Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin
> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and
> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum
> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.  Judging will cease at that
> point.*
>
> Let's take that a little further.  It seems to say, since a line is part
> of the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the box entry should be
> done 30 meters before maneuvering starts.  I don't think that was the intent
> of the rule.
> and more on lines:
>
> *Lines—All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line.
> When no line is flown between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming
> maneuver should be downgraded by two (2) points.
>           All lines within a maneuver have a beginning and end which
> define their length. The length of a line should only be graded when a
> maneuver contains several lines with a given relationship, as in a square
> loop.*
>
> I don't think entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their
> lengths and if they don't they should not be used for centering
> determination.  Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver can and are
> often different lengths that would imply those centered maneuvers where they
> are different should be downgraded.  A good example would be a turnaround of
> a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver then a stall turn for the other
> turnaround.  Should the centered maneuver be downgraded in this case since
> the entry and exit lines are of different lengths?  Also, the maneuver
> descriptions never say, "Model draws a horizontal line, (remainder of
> description) ...."   The rules never say the entry and exit lines must be 15
> meters only that they must be there.   The implication is, entry/exit lines
> should not be used in determining centering.
>
> Must there be 30 meters between maneuvers?  I disagree with Derek here.
> Here are the rules on lines.
>
> *"(As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are
> always judged)."
>   *
> then later
>
> *"The judge should form an image of the forthcoming maneuver based on
> using the straight and level entry identified in section D, Judging
> Individual Maneuvers, as a reference. The absence of a definite entry into a
> maneuver increases the difficulty of judging its precision and competitors
> will recognize this as justification for downgrading. The straight and level
> exit from a maneuver is one of the more valuable portions of a maneuver in
> evaluating how well the intended course of the maneuver was followed.
> Therefore, the absence of a well defined straight and level exit should also
> result in downgrading. In all cases, straight and level flight means flight
> parallel to the flightline, at a constant altitude, and with wings level."
>  *
> Section D does not include any reference to entry/exit lines.  It appears
> there only need be a definite or well defined line into and out of
> maneuvers.  That length is not specified.  There is also nothing to preclude
> the exit line from one maneuver being the entry line into the next.  Again,
> the maneuver descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in their text.
>
> This needs to be corrected in the next rule cycle.
>
> Sorry for the rambling,
> Don
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
> > Straight from the rule book on all counts.  The 15 meter rule for
> straight
> > line applies to entering and leaving the box as well.  Refer to page 72.
>
> >
> > http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp
> >
> > Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
> > straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
> begin
> > then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
> and
> > are always judged).  Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
> minimum
> > of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at
> that
> > point.
> >
> > If there isn't a defined straight line between maneuvers then the
> upcoming
> > maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see my comment below).  The length of
> that
> > line should be 30+ meters in order to receive no downgrade.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
> Huber
> > Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >
> > you didn't read the whole thing I posted.... Looks like you responded to
> the
> > part before "sorry"
> >
> > You have a 15 meter straight line definition... I'm not sure if thats
> from
> > the rulebook or not...  That would be appx 7 fuselage lengths.
> >
> > But.... does that just apply to the enter and leave box?  or does there
> have
> > to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the un-judged
> corrections
> > between them...  there's not much room for track corrections this way)
> > straight line between consecutive maneuvers?   Or is the way I have
> thought
> > it was correct... no defined straight line lenght between maneuvers,
> just a
> > definite straight line established?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> > To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >
> >
> >> Fred,
> >>
> >> If what you say is the case then every maneuver would be impossible to
> >> judge
> >> and that is why we have the the following:
> >>
> >> Page 72:
> >>
> >> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
> >> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
> >> begin
> >> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
> and
> >> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
> >> minimum
> >> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.
> >>
> >> Page 77:
> >>
> >> . Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal
> >> line.
> >> When no line is flown
> >> between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be
> >> downgraded
> >> by two (2) points.
> >>
> >>
> >> The generally accepted length of that line is 15 meters.
> >>
> >> So add 15 meters to the beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you
>
> >> can
> >> figure out the center for those maneuvers that have different rolling
> >> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by an opposite slow roll.
> >>
> >>
> >> ---Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
> Huber
> >> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM
> >> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >>
> >> OK.. then its impossible to downgrade THIS maneuver for centering if
> the
> >> straight lines are part of it....  Because there is no definite
> attitude
> >> of
> >> the model that can be associated with center, and the line start and
> end
> >> can't be defined, since there's also straight line exit from the
> previous
> >> maneuver and entry to the following.
> >>
> >> Sorry.
> >>
> >> Has to be start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference
> and
> >> assumed same length straight at each end. (which can be just one
> fuselage
> >> length... maybe less since the length is not defined...)
> >>
> >> If you don't assume same length straight lines... you can't judge
> center
> >> on
> >> anything.... even a simple loop.
> >>
> >> You can purposely shoot for roll rates that center the inverted....
> but
> >> as
> >> noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate than the rate
> for
> >> the 2/2.  which would be likely put put you somewhere in the slow roll
> >> portion at center.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> >> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:10 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >>
> >>
> >>> The entire maneuver is judged including the straight lines.  Each
> >>> maneuver
> >>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with a straight line.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
> Haury
> >>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55 PM
> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >>>
> >>> Actually, while the straight line "before" and "after" the maneuver is
> >>> required the names (of the lines) themselves define that they are not
> >>> "included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the aircraft begins to
> roll
> >>> (for the first element) and end when it stops rolling (the final
> >>> element).
> >>>
> >>> Earl
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 9:19 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Not necessarily - since the maneuver is made up of two different
> rolling
> >>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the center of the two
> components
> >>>> including the straight line before and after the maneuver.  Since the
>
> >>>> 2/2
> >>>> point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver
> >>>> will
> >>>> start early and the 2 point roll will finish long before center prior
> to
> >>>> the
> >>>> slow roll beginning.  What the pilot/judge needs to do is visualize
> >>>> where
> >>>> the maneuver starts including the straight flight portion and where
> it
> >>>> will
> >>>> end after the slow roll including the straight flight portion and
> >>>> position
> >>>> the maneuver accordingly.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>> jivey61 at bellsouth.net
> >>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM
> >>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> >>>>
> >>>> I am directing this to Don Ramsey.
> >>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt roll,slow roll opposite. It seems it
> >>>> would
> >>>> be between  the 2/2pt and the slow roll opposite.
> >>>>
> >>>> TIA
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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