No, my intent was not to downgrade a maneuver twice for not being centered if the entry/exit lines are not the same. My point is that in order for a center maneuver that is not symmetrical to be centered, such as the 2/2 followed by opposite slow roll, the entire maneuver should include entry and exit lines when one considers if it is centered or not. A centered loop is centered regardless of entry/exit lines however they should both be there in order to score maximum points. How can one possibly give a 10 to a perfect loop if the exit line was non-existent, especially if our rules state that all maneuver start and end with a straight line.
<br><br>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 8/15/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Don Ramsey</b> <<a href="mailto:don.ramsey@cox.net">don.ramsey@cox.net</a>> wrote:</span>
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<div><font size="2">Derek,</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">You have the wording on your side in one area. I agree about the 15 meters being the accepted standard. Consider this intrepretation, for the maneuver there must be a definite entry/exit line and for centering there must be a line but let it approach 0 meters length. It seems if there is a line on both ends its length makes no difference for centering purposes.
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<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">In your interpretation:</font></div>
<div><font size="2">- if a entry/exit line is not present on a centered maneuver it must be downgraded for centering. </font></div>
<div><font size="2">- in the case of no entry line the maneuver is downgraded twice for the same error. Once for centering and 2 points for no entry line. <font size="2">I don't think that is correct.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2">- no exit line would be downgraded for centering unless the maneuver is offset in the maneuvering portion. In this case I don't think the judge would ever get it correct.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">- this really seems to open a can of worms that would cause many inconsistencies between judges.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">dr</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
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<div><span class="e" id="q_10d122ff9e6d7fa2_1">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">Derek Koopowitz
</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">'NSRCA Mailing List'
</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:39 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20</div>
<div><br> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">True.... the rules never state that entry and exit lines should be a minimum of 15 meters - that is why I stated "generally accepted" since everywhere else it states that a 15 meter line should be present before the 1st maneuver and so on... to me a 15 meter line is nothing (extremely short) when a plane is flying at 60 mph (or faster) - but we need to include a defined length as part of each maneuver - and they should be equal lengths in order for the maneuver to be deemed "symmetrical".
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<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Don Ramsey<br><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> NSRCA Mailing List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br></font><br> </div>
<div></div>
<div><font size="2">
<div><font size="2">First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll Opposite. Center is defined only after the maneuver ends. Where did it start, where did it end and only then, was the entire maneuver centered?</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>I'm currently gathering information for the next year's judging materials so this discussion is great. </font><font size="2">Interesting points on entry and exit lines. The rules are not clear. Consider this, the box entry must be called 15 meters before the first maneuver begins. Each maneuver begins and ends with a straight line. Here's the quotes from the rules:
</font></div>
<div><font size="+0"><br><em><font size="2"><strong>Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that point.
</strong></font></em></font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Let's take that a little further. It seems to say, since a line is part of the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the box entry should be done 30 meters before maneuvering starts. I don't think that was the intent of the rule.
</font><br><font size="2"></font></div>
<div><font size="2">and more on lines:</font></div>
<div><br><font size="2"><em><strong>Lines—All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line. When no line is flown between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be downgraded by two (2) points.
<br> All lines within a maneuver have a beginning and end which define their length. The length of a line should only be graded when a maneuver contains several lines with a given relationship, as in a square loop.
</strong></em></font></div>
<div><font size="+0"><font size="2"><br></font><font size="2">I don't think entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their lengths and if they don't they should not be used for centering determination. Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver can and are often different lengths that would imply those centered maneuvers where they are different should be downgraded. A good example would be a turnaround of a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver then a stall turn for the other turnaround. Should the centered maneuver be downgraded in this case since the entry and exit lines are of different lengths? Also, the maneuver descriptions never say, "Model draws a horizontal line, (remainder of description) ...." The rules never say the entry and exit lines must be 15 meters only that they must be there. The implication is, entry/exit lines should not be used in determining centering.
<br><br>Must there be 30 meters between maneuvers? I disagree with Derek here. Here are the rules on lines. <br><br></font></font><em><strong><font size="2">"(As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged)."
<br> </font></strong></em></div>
<div><font size="2">then later</font> </div><font size="2"></font>
<div><br><strong><em><font size="2">"The judge should form an image of the forthcoming maneuver based on using the straight and level entry identified in section D, Judging Individual Maneuvers, as a reference. The absence of a definite entry into a maneuver increases the difficulty of judging its precision and competitors will recognize this as justification for downgrading. The straight and level exit from a maneuver is one of the more valuable portions of a maneuver in evaluating how well the intended course of the maneuver was followed. Therefore, the absence of a well defined straight and level exit should also result in downgrading. In all cases, straight and level flight means flight parallel to the flightline, at a constant altitude, and with wings level."
<br> </font></em></strong><br><font size="2">Section D does not include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears there only need be a definite or well defined line into and out of maneuvers. That length is not specified. There is also nothing to preclude the exit line from one maneuver being the entry line into the next. Again, the maneuver descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in their text.
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<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">This needs to be corrected in the next rule cycle.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Sorry for the rambling,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Don</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2"><br><br></font>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: "Derek Koopowitz" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com
</a>><br>To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:04 AM
<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br><br><br>> Straight from the rule book on all counts. The 15 meter rule for straight<br>> line applies to entering and leaving the box as well. Refer to page 72.
<br>> <br>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp" target="_blank">http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp</a><br>> <br>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
<br>> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin<br>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and<br>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum
<br>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that<br>> point.<br>> <br>> If there isn't a defined straight line between maneuvers then the upcoming<br>> maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see my comment below). The length of that
<br>> line should be 30+ meters in order to receive no downgrade.<br>> <br>> <br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
</a>] On Behalf Of Fred Huber<br>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM<br>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br>> <br>> you didn't read the whole thing I posted.... Looks like you responded to the
<br>> part before "sorry"<br>> <br>> You have a 15 meter straight line definition... I'm not sure if thats from<br>> the rulebook or not... That would be appx 7 fuselage lengths.<br>> <br>> But.... does that just apply to the enter and leave box? or does there have
<br>> to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the un-judged corrections<br>> between them... there's not much room for track corrections this way) <br>> straight line between consecutive maneuvers? Or is the way I have thought
<br>> it was correct... no defined straight line lenght between maneuvers, just a<br>> definite straight line established?<br>> <br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>><br>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:24 PM<br>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br>> <br>> <br>>> Fred,<br>>><br>>> If what you say is the case then every maneuver would be impossible to
<br>>> judge<br>>> and that is why we have the the following:<br>>><br>>> Page 72:<br>>><br>>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter<br>>> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
<br>>> begin<br>>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and<br>>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a <br>>> minimum<br>>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.
<br>>><br>>> Page 77:<br>>><br>>> . Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal <br>>> line.<br>>> When no line is flown<br>>> between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be
<br>>> downgraded<br>>> by two (2) points.<br>>><br>>><br>>> The generally accepted length of that line is 15 meters.<br>>><br>>> So add 15 meters to the beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you
<br>>> can<br>>> figure out the center for those maneuvers that have different rolling<br>>> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by an opposite slow roll.<br>>><br>>><br>>> ---Original Message-----
<br>>> From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Fred Huber<br>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM<br>>> To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br>>><br>>> OK.. then its impossible to downgrade THIS maneuver for centering if the<br>>> straight lines are part of it.... Because there is no definite attitude
<br>>> of<br>>> the model that can be associated with center, and the line start and end<br>>> can't be defined, since there's also straight line exit from the previous<br>>> maneuver and entry to the following.
<br>>><br>>> Sorry.<br>>><br>>> Has to be start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference and<br>>> assumed same length straight at each end. (which can be just one fuselage<br>>> length... maybe less since the length is not defined...)
<br>>><br>>> If you don't assume same length straight lines... you can't judge center <br>>> on<br>>> anything.... even a simple loop.<br>>><br>>> You can purposely shoot for roll rates that center the inverted.... but
<br>>> as<br>>> noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate than the rate for<br>>> the 2/2. which would be likely put put you somewhere in the slow roll<br>>> portion at center.<br>>>
<br>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com
</a>><br>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:10 PM<br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br>>><br>>><br>>>> The entire maneuver is judged including the straight lines. Each
<br>>>> maneuver<br>>>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with a straight line.<br>>>><br>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>>> From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>>> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
</a>] On Behalf Of Earl Haury<br>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55 PM<br>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br>>>><br>
>>> Actually, while the straight line "before" and "after" the maneuver is<br>>>> required the names (of the lines) themselves define that they are not<br>>>> "included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the aircraft begins to roll
<br>>>> (for the first element) and end when it stops rolling (the final <br>>>> element).<br>>>><br>>>> Earl<br>>>><br>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>><br>>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 9:19 PM<br>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>> Not necessarily - since the maneuver is made up of two different rolling
<br>>>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the center of the two components<br>>>>> including the straight line before and after the maneuver. Since the <br>>>>> 2/2<br>>>>> point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver
<br>>>>> will<br>>>>> start early and the 2 point roll will finish long before center prior to<br>>>>> the<br>>>>> slow roll beginning. What the pilot/judge needs to do is visualize
<br>>>>> where<br>>>>> the maneuver starts including the straight flight portion and where it<br>>>>> will<br>>>>> end after the slow roll including the straight flight portion and
<br>>>>> position<br>>>>> the maneuver accordingly.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>>>> From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>>>> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
</a>] On Behalf Of<br>>>>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:jivey61@bellsouth.net" target="_blank">jivey61@bellsouth.net</a><br>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM
<br>>>>> To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
<br>>>>><br>>>>> I am directing this to Don Ramsey.<br>>>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt roll,slow roll opposite. It seems it<br>>>>> would<br>>>>> be between the 2/2pt and the slow roll opposite.
<br>>>>><br>>>>> TIA<br>>>>><br>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>>>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
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