[NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction

Mon Aug 14 08:28:56 AKDT 2006

John,
Holy smoke!!!!!!!!!!
I think the light bulb is coming on.
When you said roll into the wind I thought "What"!!!!!
I have a little airplane shaped calendar thingy here on the desk.
What the heck...
I picked it up and hand flew it into a loop with a crap angle away from me 
going right to left and rolled it a little right as I pulled up.
I can see what you're talking about!!!
JLK

>From: John Pavlick <idsmail at sbcglobal.net>
>To: jlkonn at hotmail.com
>CC: jpavlick at idseng.com
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
>
>John,
>    There's no crying in Pattern! I hear what you're saying. That was me a 
>few years ago. Here's and easy way to sort this out: Roll into the wind. 
>Does that make sense? Here's an example: Flying from your right to your 
>left, with the wind blowing in (in your face), the plane will be crabbed 
>out with a right yaw attitude. When you pull UP elevator for the looping 
>segment, roll right. If you're going in the other direction, of course the 
>roll direction is reversed as well. Practice this until you start to see 
>things cleaning up. What you're looking for is the wings perfectly aligned 
>(in the roll axis NOT necessarily the yaw axis) to the track of the loop on 
>the vertical points. When you get it down, remember to enter and exit with 
>your wings level. This will take some more practice but you'll get it. 
>You'll be scoring 10's on those 2 loops in no time!
>
>   John Pavlick
>   http://www.idseng.com
>
>John Konneker <jlkonn at hotmail.com> wrote:
>   Dean, Adam and all,
>Thanks for the great replies.
>Dean, I am beginning to visualize what you meant by "the plane of the plane
>staying square to the plane of the flightline"...I think!
>I can see that one attempt to correct the problem only results in another.
>To be specific flying Sportsman. Takeoff direction from left to right. I
>have just completed my 1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight and I am making a ground
>track correction on the Straight Flight Back with rudder. This yaws the
>nose into the crosswind blowing in my face. I am approaching the downwind
>end of the box and need to begin my pull-up in to the looping portion of my
>Cuban Eight.
>If I do nothing else, starting wings level, as I loop over the top the nose
>is now pointing more toward me WITH the crosswind. I can see I am really
>beginning to suck dishwater now! I have a big heading error to correct and
>it won't be very pretty. I am visualizing the problem, and experienced it
>over and over yesterday but I haven't visualized the solution.
>Like I said...I could have just sat down on the edge of the runway and
>cried!
>JLK
>
>
> >From: "Dean Pappas"
> >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:07:23 -0400
> >
> >Hi John,
> >I have long struggled to find a good way to explain this, in print.
> >If, rather than wings level, you talk about "the plane of the plane 
>staying
> >square to the plane of the flightline", it may help. Maybe it won't!
> >A 3-D picture would be worth a thousand words.
> >
> >Even from crabbed level flight, or a properly crabbed vertical, any time
> >the elevator is used, the existing crab will turn into unwanted
> >wings-not-square
> >and the direction of the resulting turn will always be downwind! Adam's
> >suggestion is a good one: go handfly it a zillion times.
> >Most importantly, flying around holding bootloads of rudder to fly in a
> >crosswind will consume your power and airspeed.
> >Airspeed (or at least having it available on demand) is your friend in a
> >crosswind and the best way to maintain it is to fly the airplane
> >uncross-controlled as much as possible. Eventually, you will use very 
>very
> >small aileron inputs for as much possible, and only use the rudder,
> >as Adam says, for fixing the weathervaning that results from airspeed
> >changes, such as slowing down just before stall turns and spin entries or
> >speeding up as the plane descends. These are almost always judicious
> >downwind rudder corrections.
> >The aileron inputs will not be corrections, because they will actually 
>have
> >to happen as the looping action begins. After the fact is too late, and
> >then all you have left is rudder, or dropping a wing panel. Of course,
> >dropping a wing panel at 1G does very little compared to when you are
> >puilling G's.
> >
> >Hopefully, we will approach this problem from several different angles 
>and
> >ways of explanatioin, and you will triangulate it before long!
> >Then the other aspect of the art that Adam mentioned will start to kick 
>in.
> >
> >
> >Dean Pappas
> >Sr. Design Engineer
> >Kodeos Communications
> >111 Corporate Blvd.
> >South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> >(908) 222-7817 phone
> >(908) 222-2392 fax
> >d.pappas at kodeos.com
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jim
> >Woodward
> >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:41 AM
> >To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> >
> >
> >Well said Adam! The only way for the wings to be continuously "level"
> >during any radius or loop in a bad cross wind is by rolling the plane.
> >Thus, you must continuously roll the plane just to maintain the look of
> >wings level through the entire maneuver set. Despite the requirement for
> >wind correction to be only done in the yaw axis, the ailerons are the 
>most
> >important control surface on the plane and are not "set and forget"
> >surfaces. If you want to reduce your rudder work 50%, continuously focus
> >on
> >"wings" level. When the wings are level, the nose will always "seek" to 
>go
> >into the wind. If the wings are not level, you flash more surface area to
> >the wind and will be blown "with" the direction of the wind. If you are
> >spot on wings-wise, you will actually find a tendancy to go into the wind
> >in
> >all but the stalled maneuvers and if at too low a speed in general. 
>(stall
> >turns, spins)
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Jim W.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Adam Glatt
> >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:15 AM
> >To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> >
> >Hi John. Welcome to the game of wind correction. There's flying
> >pattern, and then there's flying pattern in the wind. The difference is
> >that in the wind you have to mentally trace the change in position of
> >the airplane to determine the correct pitch and yaw to fly at. In calm
> >you simply point the plane where you want to go.
> >
> >Perfect wind correction in pattern requires the wings be held level with
> >the horizon for all normal flight, and during rolls the points are still
> >perfect 45 or 90 degree banks from level with horizon. Wind correction
> >is completely in the yaw and pitch. In practice, this results in
> >techniques like always-present yaw angle in a crosswind; slight pitch
> >angles in any and all uplines, 45s, and loops in the presence of a down
> >the runway wind.
> >
> >There are more techniques that you will need to be perfect at it. The
> >more advanced ones include higher throttle while flying upwind and lower
> >while flying downwind, varying elevator position throughout any and all
> >looping segments in a down the runway wind to achieve a truly round loop
> >(if, during the loop, you go from straight up to upwind you will need to
> >decrease your elevator input, as the plane will have a high airspeed by
> >low ground speed; if, during the loop, you go from straight up to
> >downwind you will need to increase your elevator input), and the
> >trickiest of all, aileron correction during a yaw'd pitch change (i.e.
> >every time you use elevator in a crosswind).
> >
> >That last one is often completely overlooked until someone tells you
> >about it. The best way to realize this correction is needed is with a
> >stick plane or hand plane. Fly a level horizontal at a huge yaw angle to
> >compensate for a huge crosswind. So, fly straight but have your plane
> >yaw'd 45 degrees. Now pull elevator. Remeber, the elevator raises the
> >noise relative to the tail. As the nose lifts and eventually gets to a
> >vertical, and if you've been honest with yourself, the ailerons are now
> >banked. The only solution to this is aileron input during the elevator
> >input.
> >
> >Have fun in the wind.
> >
> >-Adam
> >
> >John Konneker wrote:
> > > I'm new at this.
> > > OK, not really but it's been over 20 years.
> > > Yesterday while practicing in enough crosswind (blowing in) to have a
> > > noticeable effect I was having difficulty keeping the plane form 
>coming
> >in
> >
> > > too close.
> > > I am confused about what the acceptable techniques are to maintain
> >position
> > > and ground track.
> > > Is it acceptable to fly a maneuver with less than wings level to
> >counteract
> > > the crosswind? This has the effect of corkscrewing the loops, etc.
> > > In the stall turns while going up trying to hold the plane into the 
>wind
> >it
> > > will begin to yaw early giving the impression that the turn is being
> >"lead"
> > > and is starting too early.
> > > Is this acceptable.
> > > Like I said, I'm confused as to what is wind correction and what 
>starts
> >the
> > > "1 point per 15 degree" deductions.
> > > Thanks!
> > > JLK
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's
> >FREE!
> >
> > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
>http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>_______________________________________________
>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963