[NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra
vicenterc at comcast.net
vicenterc at comcast.net
Mon Aug 7 08:59:01 AKDT 2006
Jay,
I move the servos using the JR test feature. It move the servos very slowly. I will try to do it manually.
I never had RFI problems with that radio in any field. I am not 100% sure now that someone turned a radio on in my frequency. The fact that I lost control exactly after the snap is a concern. I think is difficult that a radio in the same frequency was turned on exactly when I did the snap roll.
Thanks,
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
To check for bad spots it is necessary to move each servo SLOWLY, one at a time and watch for the others to glitch. Moving them rapidly will run right past a bad spot and you won’t see it.
Could the root cause been RFI?
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:57 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra
Jim,
I did it. I tested the system after discharging the battery. I plugged all servos but the throttle servo that was destroy in the crash. Everything was working fine. I used the test feature of the JR 10X to keep the servos moving. I didn't get any smoke because the stalled servo has the gears stalled but the motor is running freely.
I got a question. It was very hot here in Kansas last Saturday. A fellow club member told me that NiMh batteries are susceptible to Kansas heat. It was over 100oF and inside the plane could have been 140oF. Any experience seeing NiMh failing in these conditions.
Thanks,
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "J.Oddino" <joddino at socal.rr.com>
A stalled or locked up servo could pull the voltage down and essentially turn off the radio but it would seem to me that it would take some time and the other servos would at least start back to neutral after the snap inputs are removed. He could try plugging in the jammed servo and see what happens but be ready to unplug it before it starts smoking.
Jim O
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Van Putte
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra
On Aug 6, 2006, at 9:50 PM, vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:
The battery was a little over a year old. I cycled the battery after the crash and got around 1540 mah. It was freshly charged and I was in the second fly. I use around 200 mah per fly so the battery was close to 2000 mah. I always charge at C/10 and never fast charged.
I am discharging the battery now at 500 mah. I discharged the first time at 250 mah. I will keep increasing the discharge rate to check if I find something wrong.
I am willing to bet that you will find a bad servo. Maybe Jim Oddino or one of the other radio wizards can explain, but a single servo can cause the whole system to crash.
Ron
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Scott Anderson" <scott at rcfoamy.com>
How old are the NiMh batteries... People have found the have a steep drop off when going bad..
scott
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List ; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Cc: Fred Huber
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra
Fred,
Usually I called pilot (and/or mechanic) error until I find the cause of the crash. I haven't been in this position in a very long time. I tend to agree with you since it was clear that I didn't have control. However, the radio is working even after such a crash. There was a comment at the field that NiMh batteries can cause this problem. I will check the battery as much as possible (cycle increasing the current draws) but not sure if the test will be valid.
Thanks,
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.com>
In that case... it may have gone to lock out just as it was finishing the snap... rather than your control input to get out of the rotation, the surfaces go to neutral, it over-rotates and then plays lawn dart.
No response at all its very easy to thing failsafe lockout. Since the engine was already at the failsafe setting, you don't have that indicator to confirm (or refute) the lockout.
I wouldn't call it pilot error when the control input attempts you made simply had no effect...
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra
I am wrong below in regard the fail safe in regard the fail safe. The fail safe is programmed to cut the engine and set the control surfaces at neutral.
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
Yes, yesterday afternoon I lost my Abbra. I was doing the 45 degree down with snap. After the snap, I could not control the plane. This is my recollection of events:
1. I over rotated the snap for a kittle more than 90 degrees. It was clear to me at that early stage that something was going wrong. I snapped to the right.
2. My friend Charlie was calling for me. He also noticed and said something to put it back in position. I told him that the plane was not responding.
3. First reaction was to give full left to get it back upright. The ailerons did not respond. When I realized that, I tried to take it out of the dive by given down elevator since was pracically in inverted position. It did not respond. It that aptitude everything goes very fast. Finally, I tried to give up elevator but was already too late. I am aware that I applied these control input. It was clear to me that there was no reaction. I was able to realize that I didn't have control and I could not avoid the crash.
4. I did not have time to do anything with rudder and throttle. Throttle was at idle.
5. When we checked the crash site. One aileron servo was buzzing hard. I disconnected the servo. Therefore, my first impression that the battery flew off and it got disconnected with the force of the snap was not valid.
6. I took the plane home as it came from the crash. I disconnected only the ailerons servos. I checked the radio and everything is working fine. Only two servos are not working. The throttle servo that was practically destroyed in the crash and one aileron servo that the gears were stripped. I believe that this was caused by the force of the impact. There was not evidence of flutter in the ailerons before the crash or structural damage after coming out of the snap.
7. I believe that the plane was well over stall speed after the snap. Therefore, the plane was not in stalled condition. However, I could be wrong.
7. I use JR all around with digital servos. PCM receiver with fail safe programmed to cut engine and leave the servos in the last commanded position.
8. I use 2300 mah NiMh battery (4 cells AA Sanyo). I checked the battery voltage and was at 5.15 volts after the crash. Discharged the battery and gave 1540 mah using 250mah rate. I am planning to cycle the battery with higher loads.
9. It was very hot day. The plane was sitting in the sun and it was second fly of the day around 2:00 PM. Easily was close to 100 oF.
At this point, I have to admit that has to be pilot error since I have not been able to find a definitive cause of the crash. It is clear that the snap initiated some kind of failure. Other pilots think that the NiMh battery gave up at high currents during the snap and caused the crash. I have been flying this type of battery for two years now with no problems.
I am informing this to the group since I would like to have your feedback. If someone had a similar problem and found the cause of the crash, please let me know. I am going back to my backup plane (the old hydeout). I have a brand new Abbra so need to put it together.
Thanks and have a nice day,
Vicente Bortone
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