Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US Nationals

MKMSG mkmsg at cox.net
Tue Jun 14 18:25:19 AKDT 2005 

Richard:  I've never experimented to see if brake on or off made a 
difference.  Perhaps the ESC makes use of the back emf from the motor 
differently when set to brake off vs brake on....an interesting thought. 
I've not heard of the Kokam 10S1p pack before.  Lithium polymer packs are 
being redesigned faster than I can buy them!!  TP went from the Gen2, to the 
Lites, to the Pro Lites, and now to the new 5S4P (not sure what they're 
called) in a relatively short period.  What is the weight of the Kokam 
10s1P, and how much full throttle do you use during a flight?  Are you 
flying with a Hacker C50?

Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Strickland" <richard.s at allied-callaway.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US Nationals


> Mike,
>
> I went out last night and flew three quick P05s with the brake 'on' but 
> with
> power through the entire flight.  Kokam's batteries are 10s1ps 20c with 
> one
> long cell, layered as opposed to rolled, squashed and wrapped.  They have
> done testing on these cells and the fall-off point is much later than 
> every
> other competitive cell they tested.  I didn't believe it either until I
> tried a set and got through several flights with that pack plus a few
> manuevers.  The design also allows for thermal expansion as the plates
> expand and contract evenly with higher usable temps.  I AM using the exact
> same thing at 10lbs-15.5 oz. and now have 70 complete flights(except when 
> I
> had the brake 'off' for four)  I'm drawing 67 amps and can stand a little
> less power most of the time.  I am NOT saying this is the best 
> set-up--there
> isn't enough spare flying time--but it IS what I have right now and makes 
> my
> airplane meet weight (not that it really matters this year for me).  My
> questions were to the point of finding whether or not your experience of
> brake on or off showed any difference.  Some things in this E stuff have
> turned out opposite of what I had expected, such as using less power in a
> cross-wind.  I had expected less used with the brake off and it seems the
> opposite.  I'm only trying to see if others' experience has been similar 
> or
> my small samples of experience are valid without wasting more flights on
> something that is a detriment.  We ARE driving the heck out of these--but
> that's beta testing to a degree, isn't it?
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MKMSG" <mkmsg at cox.net>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US Nationals
>
>
>> Richard: Even with brake off, my Hacker is always receiving some power
> even
>> at the lowest throttle stick position.  If you're flying with a C50 14XL
>> Hacker and a 22 x 12 APC, I don't see how you can get through the pattern
> if
>> you are using a 3200 LiPo.  Even if you somehow used very good throttle
>> management to expend the least amount of energy per flight, you would
> still
>> be pushing a 3200 pack to the edge of its capability and under those
>> circumstances, it wouldn't last very long.  The harder you push LiPos, 
>> the
>> shorter their lifespan.  Not withstanding the size of your LiPo pack,
> there
>> are other reasons you could be drawing too much current per flight.
>> Examples include too large a prop for the motor (not sure what motor you
>> have), defective cells in the pack, a motor which was overheated (will
>> result in demagetization which, in turn, raises the current draw), overly
>> aggressive throttle use.  You should be checking the current draw at full
>> throttle about every 5 flights or so with a watt meter and checking the
> rpm
>> as well.  If all of a sudden the numbers change, it's an indication
>> something is not right.
>>
>> Mike
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Richard Strickland" <richard.s at allied-callaway.com>
>> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US Nationals
>>
>>
>> > Mike,
>> >
>> > FMA/Kokam have Discharge Protection Modules to keep us from discharging
>> > too
>> > much--it reads the low cell and pulses to let you know you are close. I
>> > tried 'brake off' yesterday and surprisingly got LESS time.  I wonder 
>> > if
>> > you
>> > are drawing the whole time the prop spins or I was just flying more far
>> > and
>> > wide--going to take more experimenting--but it started to pulse on the
> way
>> > up on the half sq. b/4 the spins--that's too darn close! Do you like it
>> > one
>> > way or the other?
>> >
>> > Richard
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "MKMSG" <mkmsg at cox.net>
>> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:38 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US Nationals
>> >
>> >
>> >> Richard:  I draw about 68 amps at WOT with a 22 x12 APE.  I normally
> set
>> > my
>> >> timer for 9 minutes and activate it just before advancing the throttle
>> >> for
>> >> takeoff.  By the time I get back on the ground, it has been around 9.5
>> >> minutes and I normally have to put 4400 ma back into the packs using 
>> >> my
>> >> Astro 109s.  I also have a C50 12xl in a Yak 54.  It also draws 68 
>> >> amps
>> >> at
>> >> WOT using a 20 x 13 APC and consumes 4400 ma in 9.5 minutes.  One has
> to
>> > be
>> >> careful not to drain these LiPo packs too close to their end point.
>> >> While
>> >> they may perform OK, their longevity will be reduced and that
> translates
>> > to
>> >> more $ for new, expensive packs.  One of my TP 5S3P 6000 packs 
>> >> recently
>> >> puffed after only 12 flights.  Luckily, TP took good care of me and
>> > replaced
>> >> the bad pack for free.
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Richard Strickland" <richard.s at allied-callaway.com>
>> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:12 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US 
>> >> Nationals
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Mike,
>> >> >
>> >> > What kind of flight times are you getting?  We're at 7.5 -8 minutes
>> >> > with
>> >> > the
>> >> > 3200s which is real iffy toward the end(particularly if the CD says
> to
>> >> > orbit).  The prototype balancing charger that is due shortly
> supposedly
>> >> > will
>> >> > give us another 10% which for us weight challanged guys(more ways
> than
>> >> > one)
>> >> > will make these a little more solid for contests and making weight.
>> >> > Are
>> >> > you
>> >> > running brake on or off?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >
>> >> > Richard
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "MKMSG" <mkmsg at cox.net>
>> >> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:56 AM
>> >> > Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US
> Nationals
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> The new 5300 TP is configured as a 5S4P.  The 10S setup (two TP 
>> >> >> 5300
>> >> >> packs
>> >> >> in series) would be 39.4 oz. which is a bit lighter than the TP 
>> >> >> 5S3P
>> > 6000
>> >> >> packs I've been using.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mike
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Richard Strickland" <richard.s at allied-callaway.com>
>> >> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 10:33 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US
>> >> >> Nationals
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Would that be 5 or 10?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > RS
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "MKMSG" <mkmsg at cox.net>
>> >> >> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> >> > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 6:52 PM
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US
>> > Nationals
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> My 5300 pack weighs 19.7 oz.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Mike Moritko
>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> From: "Adam Glatt" <adam.g at sasktel.net>
>> >> >> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> >> >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 3:57 PM
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US
>> >> >> >> Nationals
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > We don't have an accurate scale at work, so the only figures I
>> > have
>> >> > are
>> >> >> >> > direct from Thunder Power's website:
>> >> >> >> > http://thunderpower-batteries.com/html/batteries.html
>> >> >> >> > showing 560 grams each.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > -Adam
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Richard Strickland wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>Hey Adam,
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>How much does a set weigh with any associated harness?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>Thanks,
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>Richard
>> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> >>From: "Adam Glatt" <adam.g at sasktel.net>
>> >> >> >> >>To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> >> >> >>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:02 AM
>> >> >> >> >>Subject: Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at US
>> >> > Nationals
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>>Jim, the Thunder Power 5s4p 5300 pack is in stock with free
>> > courier
>> >> >> >> >>>shipping at parts.rctoys.com .
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>I'm using a 6.0v regulator (JR servos) with my 2s lipo
> receiver
>> >> > pack,
>> >> >> >> >>>and used a mere 290mAh in 51 minutes of flight yesterday.  My
>> >> >> >> >>>fellow
>> >> >> >> >>>team members are using Futaba servos with a 5.6v regulator,
> and
>> >> > seeing
>> >> >> >> >>>50-60mAh per a 10 minute flight.  You can definitely cut
>> >> >> >> >>>receiver
>> >> >> >> >>>battery weight.  My TP 2s730 weighs 31g.
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>BTW, in Canada we changed our rules this year such that
> electric
>> >> >> > pattern
>> >> >> >> >>>planes are weighed without the battery that powers the motor.
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>If you want a killer deal on the 2s730 with a 5300 order, ask
>> >> >> >> >>>for
>> >> >> >> >>>me
>> >> >> >> >>>;>
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>-Adam
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>Jim_Woodward at beaerospace.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>RS - Although I have taken GREAT care with the airframe
> weight
>> > of
>> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >>>>Impact, I have used a non-exotic equipment list, so I am at
> 11
>> >> >> >> >>>>lbs,
>> >> >> >> >>>>4.5 oz with 6000 mah TP packs (2, 5S,3P).  I did not use
>> > aluminum
>> >> >> >> >>>>wheel axles, nor replace the wheel pants, nor replace the
> heavy
>> >> > wing
>> >> >> >> >>>>tube.  Also, I used the Futaba 9152 monster servo for the
>> > rudder.
>> >> >> >> >>>> Also, I'm using the stock steel prop nut and spinner jam
> nut.
>> >> >> >> >>>> So,
>> >> > I
>> >> >> >> >>>>used very standard equipment, and still came close to making
>> >> >> >> >>>>the
>> >> >> >> >>>>weight.  A quick solution is to purchase (if available), the
>> > 5300
>> >> > mah
>> >> >> >> >>>>packs, which in itself drops 4-5 oz I've heard.  Dropping
> even
>> >> >> >> >>>>5
>> >> >> >> >>>>oz
>> >> >> >> >>>>may be possible just with some equipment changes.  The
> airframe
>> >> >> >> >>>>really
>> >> >> >> >>>>not going to get any lighter, except some more trimming of
> the
>> >> >> >> >>>>chin
>> >> >> >> >>>>cowl flanges.  I'm happy with the build and got close to the
>> >> >> >> >>>>weight
>> >> >> >> >>>>limit with a very standard equipment set.  Also, using the 2
>> > cell
>> >> >> >> >>>>Li-ion, 2200 mah battery.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>I've heard that they may change the electric weighing
>> >> >> >> >>>>procedures
>> >> > such
>> >> >> >> >>>>that the battery is removed at this years nats, but looking
> for
>> >> >> >> >>>>confirmation before I spend a bunch more cash.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>Thanks,
>> >> >> >> >>>>Jim
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>James Woodward
>> >> >> >> >>>>Program Manager
>> >> >> >> >>>>B/E Aerospace Business Jet Group - Miami
>> >> >> >> >>>>9100 N.W. 105th Circle
>> >> >> >> >>>>Miami, FL 33178
>> >> >> >> >>>>(305) 459-7155  Office
>> >> >> >> >>>>(305) 459-7185  Fax
>> >> >> >> >>>>(954) 319-0873  Cellular
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>*"Richard Strickland" <richard.s at allied-callaway.com>*
>> >> >> >> >>>>Sent by: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>06/10/2005 09:31 AM
>> >> >> >> >>>>Please respond to
>> >> >> >> >>>>discussion at nsrca.org
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>To
>> >> >> >> >>>><discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> >> >> >>>>cc
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>Subject
>> >> >> >> >>>>Re: Electric Weight: with or without batteries at UN
> Nationals
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>ALUMINUM servo screws?  Man, you must REALLY be close!?!
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>RS
>> >> >> >> >>>>----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> >>>>*From:* _Jim_Woodward at beaerospace.com_
>> >> >> >> >>>><mailto:Jim_Woodward at beaerospace.com>
>> >> >> >> >>>>*To:* _discussion at nsrca.org_ <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> >> >> >>>>*Sent:* Friday, June 10, 2005 7:56 AM
>> >> >> >> >>>>*Subject:* Electric Weight: with or without batteries at UN
>> >> > Nationals
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>Hi All,
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>Does anyone happen to know what the weighing policy will be
> for
>> >> >> >> >>>>electric planes at the nats (with or without batteries)?
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>Also - does anyone know the source for aluminum servo 
>> >> >> >> >>>>screws?
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>Thanks,
>> >> >> >> >>>>Jim W.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
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