Glow Engine Vs. Electric Engine for 2 m' pattern plane

Wed Jun 1 08:20:54 AKDT 2005

Fantastic post, Jerry!!!!

Jerry Budd wrote:

> >John,
> >           I think that you might agree that what appears to be
> >working for "sponsored" pilots may not yet be that realistic for
> >those who spend their own hard earned dollars on the hobby.
>
> I don't think that I agree with your assessment above and I would
> suggest that I'm as qualified as anyone to comment on this since I
> was the highest placing non-sponsored electric pilot at last years
> Nats.  :-)
>
> As we've seen the past few days it all depends on how you do the
> math.  If you're starting out from scratch with no existing support
> equipment it's nearly a push.  If you're converting over from glow it
> can appear to be a bit pricey at first (watching your cherished tools
> and accessories become obsolete can be difficult to accept), but
> there's still an economic "break even" point to be realized at some
> point in time.
>
> >I really don't feel that electric is that viable yet. Not from a
> >technology point of view, but much more of a durability and
> >reliability point of view. I note that the pioneers are starting to
> >use less amps/volts in the motors to get more longevity out of not
> >just  the motors but also the controllers and the battery packs. (A
> >few months ago you did not hear this type of statement.)
>
> I think you're missing the mark here.  The reliability of the motors
> (at least with the Hacker setups) hasn't been much of an issue for
> most of the last year.  And the problem with the controllers has been
> zero since switching to the Acro 90.  The only real issue is battery
> longevity and from what I have seen lately (meaning witnessed with my
> own eyes, not anecdotal evidence, not "someone claims", but my own
> personal firsthand observations of the equipment in use over an
> extended period of time), is that we're really close to having the
> battery problems licked.  The impedance of the newest Thunder Power
> batteries is now low enough that the batteries come out of the
> airplane after a flight no warmer than when you put them in prior to
> the flight.  Let me repeat that - there's no noticeable increase in
> battery temperature over the course of a (F3A) flight.  This is
> significant because it means that the battery is now being operated
> with some margin and isn't being pushed to it's limit, which means a
> likely increase in battery life expectancy.  This is huge.
>
> As far as the reliability of electric vs glow is concerned it really
> isn't even a debatable point anymore.  A properly configured electric
> setup is (IMHO) probably an order of magnitude more reliable than the
> best glow setup.  Maybe even better than that, time will tell.
>
> >I also note that it feels like and may well be true, that you have
> >to know a lot more about the limits of electric motors and the
> >associated equipment to be successful and safe. I contact many of
> >the "electric" suppliers and find it very hard to get definitive
> >answers on what I should and should not do as regards the set-ups
> >and the limits.
>
> The equipment suppliers can't help much because (for the most part)
> they don't know as much about this as we do.  Most of them don't fly
> pattern and they are relying on us, those who chose to give electric
> a go, to tell them what works and what doesn't.  For the last 20
> years or so pattern has fallen behind wrt pushing the technology,
> compared to R/C cars and helicopters.  Prior to that pattern was
> where all the latest "whiz bang" developments could be found.  For
> the first time in a long time pattern is now pushing a technology
> (electric power) harder and farther than anything else in use.  Some
> of the other areas that push electric technology such as the electric
> FAI events are impressive in their own right, but they pale in
> comparison to what we now expect out of our equipment to fly pattern
> with an electric plane.
>
> >Where this leads me is that I am currently on the side of caution
> >with this stuff because you can use up a very large amount of money
> >before you realize that you have not gone the right route. With glow
> >most of us can sort out the enthusiast vs. the zealot vs. the
> >professional user of the equipment. With electric I can't.
>
> That's only because you have some experience with glow setups to
> balance against the BS that someone may try to feed you (and there's
> a lot of that out there with glow motors to contend with).  I would
> submit that the electric is much easier to setup since there's fewer
> variables to contend with.  In essence, it's a far simpler setup to
> install, support, and troubleshoot.  As far as the professional user
> is concerned, there's only three fully sponsored pilots in the US
> flying electric: Jason, QuiQue, and Chip (Frackowiak isn't fully
> sponsored, he buys most of his electric equipment, some of it at a
> discount, some of it at street prices like many of us).  Of those
> four Jason is active in this forum and has been very open about the
> setups he's used the past couple of years.  QuiQue isn't active here,
> and he's played around with the electric 3D stuff for a while, but
> the electric pattern setup is still relatively new to him.  Chip just
> flew his first contest with an electric Genesis at Vegas a week and a
> half ago, to be honest he's the newbie among the group and likely
> knows the least about the ins and outs of it all.  Frackowiak has
> been flying, and competing, with his ePartner in F3A since January
> 2004, and he now has something like 700 flights on the airplane (I
> only flew it for 3 weeks last summer, including at the Nats, and some
> people consider me an expert on it!).  Tony is far and away the most
> experienced electric pattern competitor out there and he's been
> pretty open about sharing what he's doing with anyone who
> (legitimately) wants to know.  Also, there's loads of info on RCU on
> what Frack has experienced with his "conversion" to electric, all you
> have to do is Google it.
>
> >I read about the rave reviews of how well a certain system performs
> >and then I get the flow of private e-mails with more factual and
> >less glowing (No joke intended) realities of the set-up. In most
> >cases I can't print what I am sent but it does concern me that when
> >I tried to emulate the top system of the day it was both expensive
> >beyond my expectations and did not perform all that well.
>
> I have no idea what setups you've been looking at but I can say this
> with absolute certainty.  The setup that Frack's been using in the
> ePartner for the last 16 months (Hacker C50-14XL6.7-1, Hacker Acro 90
> controller, APC22x12e prop) with the Thunder Power Pro Lite 10s3p
> 6000 cells has significantly more vertical performance than ANY other
> 2M plane I have seen to date, my Webra 160 powered E=MC3 on Magnum #1
> included.  And that's saying a lot, my E=MC3 on Magnum #1 is pretty
> spectacular but the ePartner is better.  And the new 5300's that TP
> has are lower impedance yet which means even better flight
> performance (not that it matters anymore).  I will likely be flying a
> pair of electric powered Abbra's at the Nats this year in Masters.
> They'll be electric because my experience suggests that electric is
> better than glow, and well, see my last comment below.
>
> BTW - In case anyone is wondering, I'm not sponsored by anyone, in
> any way (other than my wife, Rosana, and our two dogs, Buster &
> Millie).  I pay for all my stuff, including fuel, so you can take
> what I write for what it's worth (although Horizon did tell me to
> keep the Webra 160 I borrowed from them for the 2003 Nats).
>
> >It was not enough to put me off pattern, but I had been a beginner
> >it might easily have sent me away.
>
> Interestingly, what we've seen out here at some meets in California
> is somewhat the opposite.  There's been an interest in flying pattern
> being shown by pilots who've never flown a glow airplane before.
> They're interested in flying precision aerobatics, but not if they
> have to mess with a glow or ignition motor to do so.
>
> One last point.  Outside of the Abbra's I don't even own any other
> electric planes, not even a "foamie".  So it's not like I'm anti-glow
> or anything like that.  I just like winning.  ;-)
>
> Thx, Jerry
> --
> ___________
> Jerry Budd
> Budd Engineering
> (661) 722-5669 Voice/Fax
> (661) 435-0358 Cell Phone
> mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com
> http://www.buddengineering.com
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