Judge Feedback - Winning... Knowledge or Talent?

Thu Jan 13 18:50:20 AKST 2005

Hmmm. 

Sportsman as a learning class - how's that for a paradigm (whatever THAT
is.) - and I think judge / coaching's much more acceptable there than in
the higher classes. 

When I flew Sportsman not too long ago, I routinely asked judges for
feedback immediately after I landed - sometimes they'd give it -
sometimes not. Sometimes the two judges had differing opinions, which
was always a treat. 

Now, when I'm in the chair, I use a system similar to Lance's to note my
perceptions of the flight I'm judging - in the margins of the
scoresheet. Might help trigger the victim / pilot to ask me about them,
and will certainly help me remember why I gave that score, if asked. 

The pattern community just isn't that big, and the guys in this year's
sportsman class will be right beside us in Masters / FAI in a few years
if they stay with it. We're not just scoring their flights, we're
welcoming them into the community. If we do it right, we'll be flying
with these guys for a long time. - I believe it's possible to be fair
and impartial in the chair and still provide an item or two of immediate
post-flight feedback to the pilot. My informal ground rules for this: 

-          Talk to the pilot AFTER score sheet's finished and put away
or turned in. The pilot doesn't get to look over a judge's shoulder at
his score sheet ever. 

-          Ensure that the other judge is OK w/ making comments - defer
to him if he's a more senior guy. 

-          Never push comments on the pilot - if he indicates he's
interested, point out one or two things, 

-          Make comments in a positive manner ("You might try holding a
notch of throttle at the top of the stall turn, and hitting the rudder a
tad earlier.") 

-          Don't allow the short dialog to slow the pace of the
contest-the next pilot up has priority once he's been cleared to start
his engine. 

-          When asked I'm willing to 

o        either coach the pilot by watching others' flights (preferably
in another class) and discussing techniques (OUT of earshot of anyone
else, esp the flight line) 

o        meet w/ the pilot after the round for a detailed discussion of
perceptions of his flight- the debrief marks are already on his score
sheet. 

Just my $.02 - 

Rick 

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:15 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Judge Feedback - Winning... Knowledge or Talent?

Keith - as you know - there is a fine line, which is quite fuzzy,
between "pointing out defects" and "coaching".  In fact, it is nearly
indistinguishable at times.

    For example, if I point out to someone that they were violating the
box on a turnaround, VERY often the reply is "What should I do about
it?"

    If the Judge is a "natural coach", he answers from his experience.

And that's where the unfair advantage begins.

Not saying we can't keep it all straight, but MANY, MANY pilots want
just a skosh more info than "your roll was off-center left"....

Bob Pastorello
NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
rcaerobob at cox.net
www.rcaerobats.net

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Keith Black <mailto:tkeithb at comcast.net>  

To: discussion at nsrca.org 

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:11 PM

Subject: Re: Judge Feedback - Winning... Knowledge or Talent?

I can understand the comments I'm hearing from the FAI contingent for
FAI and possibly Masters.

Now let's talk about the lower classes. 

Should the winner of a lower class win because they are the best pilot,
or because their competition is kept in the dark? 

>From comments here it seems that some would be upset if a judge let
their competitor know about something they were not aware of. If a judge
tells a Sportsman or Intermediate pilot they were out of the box or
their square was a rectangle why should their competitors be upset? To
be upset suggests that you want your competitor kept in the dark because
you're afraid you can't beat them if they are made aware of what they're
doing wrong.

I for one regularly point out mistakes to those I'm flying against, and
others do the same for me. For that matter I call for those I fly
against whether they're in my club or not, and when I'm standing there
as their caller my objective is to help them get the best flight
possible. I KNOW I've given advice that may have helped people beat me,
so what? If they beat me it's because they were better than me. If I win
I want it to be because I was better than the other pilots and not
because we have rules that inhibit them being told they're flying a
maneuver wrong. Give them the info and put them on a level playing
field. 

Everyone in the lower classes enjoys winning a contests, but that's not
the focus (for me at least). I'm there to improve and have fun hanging
around my pattern buddies. Even if I win a lower class I know I'm still
not the best pilot, clearly the majority of the guys at the contest
could kick my back-side. So why get so hung up on winning in the lower
classes? Give us all the information possible so maybe one day we can be
up there with you serious guys. Until then we're just fighting about
who's the best not as good as most pilot.

Keith Black

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Andre Bouchard <mailto:akfai at gci.net>  

To: discussion at nsrca.org 

Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:22 PM

Subject: Re: Judge Feedback

Philosophically, I believe that judges providing feedback to
contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback during a contest is
inappropriate, if not unethical.  If the feedback were shared among all
contestants, then maybe no inequities would be created, but this is not
what happens in practice, nor can it practically.

I appreciate the interest in nurturing the sport and helping the
newcomer, but who decides when a person gets feedback and when they do
not.  Terry suggests feedback might be permissible in Sportsman.  I can
see the value in that, but again, unless the feedback for each
contestant is shared with all the contests in the class, someone is
being advantaged or disadvantaged.  How is letting one guy have a
re-flight when his engine dies during a round any different from giving
the same guy a pointer about his flying and not his competition?

It is not just the Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to;
in my experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant
initiated, occurs in all classes at most contests.  At major contests,
for example the World Championships, care is taken to avoid contact
between judges and contestants.  Why?...To avoid biasing the results.
It is a matter of fairness, and of ethics/professionalism.

If we are going to openly give feedback at contests, then we need formal
guidelines in the same way we need guidelines for judging
maneuvers--uniform application.

I think a better forum for the newcomer to get feedback on his flying
would be to have pattern seminars (flying) along the lines of what was
done in Houston in spring 2004.

Andre' 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Terry Terrenoire <mailto:amad2terry at juno.com>  

To: discussion at nsrca.org 

Cc: discussion at nsrca.org 

Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:55 PM

Subject: Re: Judge Feedback

While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history that
gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole they
have great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level.
I some cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they
believed they should look, but were completely wrong. most of the
constructive criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very
general nature. "establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries
and exits" "if you get the wings level before entry your loops will be
easier to keep on path"

I don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes conflict
between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I
have made to these pilots has been genuinely appreciated.

We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at their home field to
help them. They may be trying this for the first time, and if we can
give them some good help, it may bring them back!!

Terry T.

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury" <ehaury at houston.rr.com>
writes:

Here are some considerations regarding judges providing feedback to
competitors the we should address. 

The key word is "competitors". Judges score individuals performances in
competitions that are held to ascertain the relative skills of
competitors to perform according to stated rules and descriptions. Being
a competition - one should assume that flyers present their patterns to
the unbiased judge sets and the let scores describe the ranking. 

The presumption is that the competitors arrive prepared to compete.
Those who have worked the hardest on this preparation will (and should)
generally excel. A pattern contest isn't intended to be a training
ground, but a review of achievement and peer comparison. Judges who
provide feedback have good intentions, but there are questions that
deserve attention. Isn't the job of the judge to provide the correct
score for each maneuver? Is it appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct
attention to make notations for post flight feedback? Will the feedback
be consistent to all competitors, or "buddy biased"? Is it fair to my
competition for judges to point out my errors so that I can correct them
in subsequent flights? If judges with largely different scores on a
specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree - then what? In the
latter, will this disagreement influence a judge to change standards
mid-round? What if some wish to discuss feedback, or argue with it, at
the expense of  delaying the next flight?  What if this agitates the
judges and you're next up? 

I realize that the gist of the feedback issue is to benefit the newbie,
but the above points apply here also. We seem to accept that anyone,
without practice or proper equipment or preparation (reading the rules),
should be able to fly successfully in some form of "beginner" class.
This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled with the rules of the beginner
class for years to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges feedback at a
contest isn't going to help the unprepared. What will help is mentoring
- but not from the judges chair! 

The best place to help the newbie is at the practice field where
everything can be addressed. Coach these folks, provide feedback and
assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and critique. Help trim their
airplane, be supportive with equipment maintenance, etc. Get them
prepared for those first contests, call for them, critique their
flights, evaluate their scores, help them in every way as a coach and
friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't do this from the
judges chair - judging is the only job then. 

Earl

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