Judge Feedback

Thu Jan 13 13:12:04 AKST 2005

OK guys, I am a newbie and have 3 contests under my belt.  Believe me that
was the longest 10 min. of flying that I have ever experienced.  I was
nervous, intimidated by upper class pilots and airplanes -  you name it, but
every one, at each contest, including the judges offered encouragement and
advice.  All of the judges worked with the sportsmen after they flew, which
I felt was great.  I will enter 4 or 5 contests this year because of a
better understanding of the sportsman's class.  Thanks to all the input I
received from Texas, LA and Arkansas -  they are a bunch of great guys.
Also, Don R. from Texas held a special pilots meeting for all the sportsmen
prior to the contest and went over each maneuver at that time.  There was a
question and answer time during this short seminar that put all us newbies
at ease -  there was 6 or 7 entries in sportsman class.

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of George Kennie
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:57 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Judge Feedback [PMX:]

I think that there may be times when consideration needs to be given to the
circumstances at hand. 
While I can certainly agree that there should be no communication between
the judge and the competitor at the World Championships, I think that there
may be certain situations where compassion may dictate some degree of mercy.

Consider the scenario where a new Sportsman pilot fails to call box entries
and exits or fails to call the landing and all the other pilots in the class
are not guilty of this same infraction and you ding him 2 points per
infraction and at the conclusion of his flight he queries the judge as to
what he needs to do to improve his scoring, then I wouldn't feel it
rendering him and unfair advantage to point out his shortcoming. 
As a judge, I would have difficulty telling him that he needed to attend a
judging seminar in order to learn the rules of the game.I think he would
view me as an authority, by virtue of my position in the chair, and probably
find me an elitist stinker. 
G. 

Andre Bouchard wrote: 

  Philosophically, I believe that judges providing feedback to contestants,
or contestants soliciting feedback during a contest is inappropriate, if not
unethical.  If the feedback were shared among all contestants, then maybe no
inequities would be created, but this is not what happens in practice, nor
can it practically. I appreciate the interest in nurturing the sport and
helping the newcomer, but who decides when a person gets feedback and when
they do not.  Terry suggests feedback might be permissible in Sportsman.  I
can see the value in that, but again, unless the feedback for each
contestant is shared with all the contests in the class, someone is being
advantaged or disadvantaged.  How is letting one guy have a re-flight when
his engine dies during a round any different from giving the same guy a
pointer about his flying and not his competition? It is not just the
Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in my experience, judge
feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated, occurs in all classes at
most contests.  At major contests, for example the World Championships, care
is taken to avoid contact between judges and contestants.  Why?...To avoid
biasing the results.  It is a matter of fairness, and of
ethics/professionalism. If we are going to openly give feedback at contests,
then we need formal guidelines in the same way we need guidelines for
judging maneuvers--uniform application. I think a better forum for the
newcomer to get feedback on his flying would be to have pattern seminars
(flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in spring 2004. Andre'
----- Original Message ----- 

From: Terry  <mailto:amad2terry at juno.com> Terrenoire
To: discussion at nsrca.org <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org> 
Cc: discussion at nsrca.org <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Judge Feedback
 While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history that gives
him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole they have great
merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level. I some cases I
have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they believed they should
look, but were completely wrong. most of the constructive criticisms I have
rendered from the chair were of a very general nature. "establish a line
between manuvers", "call box entries and exits" "if you get the wings level
before entry your loops will be easier to keep on path" I don't think the
judes will be saying anything that causes conflict between them when
critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I have made to these
pilots has been genuinely appreciated. We have to remember that a lot of
them have noone at their home field to help them. They may be trying this
for the first time, and if we can give them some good help, it may bring
them back!! Terry T.  On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury"
<ehaury at houston.rr.com <mailto:ehaury at houston.rr.com> > writes: 

Here are some considerations regarding judges providing feedback to
competitors the we should address. The key word is "competitors". Judges
score individuals performances in competitions that are held to ascertain
the relative skills of competitors to perform according to stated rules and
descriptions. Being a competition - one should assume that flyers present
their patterns to the unbiased judge sets and the let scores describe the
ranking. The presumption is that the competitors arrive prepared to compete.
Those who have worked the hardest on this preparation will (and should)
generally excel. A pattern contest isn't intended to be a training ground,
but a review of achievement and peer comparison. Judges who provide feedback
have good intentions, but there are questions that deserve attention. Isn't
the job of the judge to provide the correct score for each maneuver? Is it
appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct attention to make notations for
post flight feedback? Will the feedback be consistent to all competitors, or
"buddy biased"? Is it fair to my competition for judges to point out my
errors so that I can correct them in subsequent flights? If judges with
largely different scores on a specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree
- then what? In the latter, will this disagreement influence a judge to
change standards mid-round? What if some wish to discuss feedback, or argue
with it, at the expense of  delaying the next flight?  What if this agitates
the judges and you're next up? I realize that the gist of the feedback issue
is to benefit the newbie, but the above points apply here also. We seem to
accept that anyone, without practice or proper equipment or preparation
(reading the rules), should be able to fly successfully in some form of
"beginner" class. This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled with the rules of
the beginner class for years to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges
feedback at a contest isn't going to help the unprepared. What will help is
mentoring - but not from the judges chair! The best place to help the newbie
is at the practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these
folks, provide feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and
critique. Help trim their airplane, be supportive with equipment
maintenance, etc. Get them prepared for those first contests, call for them,
critique their flights, evaluate their scores, help them in every way as a
coach and friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't do this from
the judges chair - judging is the only job then. Earl   

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