[SPAM] Re: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey

[Bill Southwell]

I agree 100%!  here goes my few comments:

I think Landings and takeoffs should be judged. It has cost me a few 
places in the points at a contest when I didn't have it together.But 
thats part of the appeal to me...make my flying better.   The event is 
about precision!!

   I would like to see a increase in the weight limit. It would be self 
limiting if the size (2M) stayed as is.  It would allow more cross over 
designs to be flown, possibly more innovative designs or at least the 
looks of what is being flown. It would allow for  a less skilled builder 
to entertain the thought of attending the NATs knowing his 11.8 lb. 
plane would not cause him to be disqualified.  Also might make engines 
like Moki 1.8  a possibility. They are as reliable as a stone and easy 
to operate.  Might creat a resurgence in entry level participation.  I 
want to try 40cc gas like what, if I rember right,  Dave Lockhart 
posted. A little bit of extra weight allowed would open up alot of 
doors. If the FAI segment keeps there birds at FAI legal weight then 
there are ready to go to worlds. Maybe keep FAI at11 lbs and let the 
lower classes go up to 12-12.5 lbs. I am an intermiadiate pilot and I 
don't plan to fly FAI any time soon so maybe I am out of my gord but 
thats my thoughts on changes. loose nut or not!!!  :>)

Regards
Bill











Gray E Fowler wrote:

>
> Here comes the dreaded weight debate again....
>
> Consider this-Anyone in the upper level classes would not be too smart 
> to have a plane heavier than it needs to be.  But, lets pretend there 
> is a hot new Sportsman named uh lets see..... Chuck. Chuck tears up 
> 401 after 3 contests, and he is flying his best airplane that most FAI 
> guys would consider a toy (and I do not mean the "foamie toys" 
> pictured in last months Model Aviation being held by  a guy named 
> "Chuck")  and so moving up to Intermediate halfway thru his first 
> season, last 3 contests were quite a challenge, BUT he places in 402 
> anyway!
> In the off season, he saves his pennies, keeps his wife happy and gets 
> a used REAL pattern plane, built by someone who has a slight heavy 
> hand, and alas it weighs 11.5 lbs. Now this here Chuck is good and 
> pumped up and I would place money that this theoretical person could 
> place at the NATS, but his plane is over weight!!!!! one more !
>
> Sorry Chuck, even though you are flying at a disadvantage, we will not 
> let you play at the NATS........Oh unless you can spend $2k more on 
> another plane.
>
> The story you have just read is about to be true, once we do not let 
> Chuck fly at this years NATS. But at least the French FAI rule makers 
> are happy.
>
> Consider a weight change. It does not need to be across the board and 
> for the life of me I cannot imagine why it needs to align with FAI. 
>  Chuck will have a 5Kg plane *BY THE TIME HE REACHES FAI-*and the 
> French can be happy then*.*
>
>
>
> Gray Fowler
> Principal Chemical Engineer
> Composites Engineering
>
>
>
> 	*"Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>*
> Sent by: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>
> 02/08/2005 01:47 PM
> Please respond to discussion
>
> 	       
>         To:        <discussion at nsrca.org>
>         cc:        
>         Subject:        RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey
>
>
>
>
> I have to agree 100% with Dave on this one.  I'd also like to add that 
> in addition to raising the cost...it doesn't acheive the objective. 
>  Any and all sports that have limitations of this type (Sailing comes 
> to mind with complex formulas that define the class of boat) ALWAYS 
> have one critical limiting factor.  For us it USE to be the engine. 
>  We had a weight restriction...but it was meaningless because you 
> couldn't approach it with the power options that we had.
>  
> Now, with unlimited engine size...weight, and in some cases size, has 
> become the constraining factor.
>  
> In all cases...there are always those with the talent and money to 
> take the rules to the limit.  We will always be chasing them, and 
> trying to acheive what they acheive.   It's great to say that raising 
> the weight limit will allow more "stock" models to compete...   But my 
> bet is that someone creative and talented will make use of that rule 
> in a way that others can't easily follow...and will again have 
> competitive advantage.    And as Dave so aptly pointed out...it will 
> cost the rest of us more money.
>  
> Steve Maxwell has made the best suggestion to date.   I for one have 
> NEVER seen a sportsman pilot denied admission to an event based on the 
> weight of their plane.  Size, yes (we turned away a few 30% planes for 
> safety reasons) but never just on weight.  In fact...I've never seen 
> ANYONE weight a plane at any event other than the Nat's finals.   So I 
> think we could EASILY acheive the objective with a simple statement 
> that alters the current "intent" from one where the CD CAN change the 
> rule...to one that implies the CD USUALLY changes the rule.  
>  
> I dont recall Steve's language, but it was simple and to the point so 
> I'll paraphrase... " CD's often/usually alter (or wave) the weight 
> restriction for the sportsman class...please contact them for details".  
>  
> -Mark
> -----Original Message-----*
> From:* discussion-request at nsrca.org 
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *DaveL322 at comcast.net*
> Sent:* Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:01 PM*
> To:* discussion at nsrca.org*
> Subject:* *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey
>
> Buddy,
>  
> Deliberately segregating FAI and AMA is counterproductive.  We need 
> all the pattern fliers we can get, and we need a common target for the 
> limited number of manufacturers and suppliers we have.  I would never 
> suggest AMA pattern rules blindly follow FAI, but there would have to 
> be a huge benefit to US pattern before I would advocate moving away 
> from the FAI in the US.
>  
> FAI pilots in the US have made many contributions to AMA pattern in 
> the US and I think most pattern pilots in the US would agree that the 
> FAI pilots are a resource to all of pattern in the US.  Cutting FAI 
> pilots out of AMA pattern issues is losing a resource.  And I think 
> you'd have a hard time doing it in practice - many pilots bounce back 
> and forth between FAI and Masters - there is no rule against it as 
> they are different systems with common elements.
>  
> If there is no valid reason to oppose an increase in the weight limit, 
> it seems strange to me that the majority has repeatedly voted to keep 
> the weight limit as is.  Anyone who chooses to look at the history of 
> the "limiting" rules for pattern (weight, size, displacement) can 
> pretty easily see what the net result has been anytime the limits have 
> been increased.  For those not familiar with the rules history of 
> pattern, the most basic of points I am alluding to is cost - any 
> increase in the limits results in an increase in the cost of the 
> average pattern plane - not something that is productive for our event.
>  
> This list and numerous other publications have contained many ideas, 
> rationales, and discussions opposed to increasing the weight limit for 
> close to 20 years (that I know of).  Perhaps you could share your 
> thoughts as to why those ideas, rationales, and discussions are not 
> valid?
>  
> Regards,
>
> Dave Lockhart
> _DaveL322 at comcast.net_ <mailto:DaveL322 at comcast.net>
>  
> -------------- Original message --------------
> In a message dated 2/8/2005 8:02:54 AM Central Standard Time, 
> donramsey at cox-internet.com writes:
> Ok everyone, here's your chance.  What would you like to see changed 
> in the regulations for precision aerobatics?  Up the weight limit, 
> change the box, score takeoff and landings, etc?
>  
> Email me offline at _donramsey at cox-internet.com_ 
> <mailto:donramsey at cox-internet.com> with your ideas.
>  
> Don
>  
>  
> Don
> As an after thought it would be interesting for those who oppose a 
> weight change to state their reasons for opposing it so the benefits 
> to pattern can be evaluated for each case.  I cannot come up with a 
> valid reason *not *To change the rule. It would also be interesting to 
> know if opposition comes from a specific group. Since this change does 
> not apply to FAI it is my opinion that votes from those in that group 
> should not be used to sway the vote in Any NSRCA survey that would 
> effect the submission of an AMA rules change proposal since these do 
> not apply to FAI rules changes.
> Buddy  
>  
>

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