Performance Judging? (back to original discussion)

[Rock, Charles]

Eric are you talking Nats only?? Charlie

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Grow Pattern
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:56 AM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Performance Judging? (back to original discussion) 


The need to train judges is paramount. I use the word training because you can teach a student all about driving but training them in a car does so much more.
 
I with Rick on all of this measurement stuff. It's both after the fact and if not done properly will create judges who will not want to be outside of the bandwidth or normalcy.
 
You can train a judge on each schedule and class (FAI has different scoring units). If you were trained to judge by the schedules you would have a dossier of downgrades that you would be ready to use. You would be practiced in the downgrade techniques fro simple and complex maneuvers. They class you fly would become irrelevant.
 
A field session a dvd, video work at the field, you name it would make a huge difference. The NSRCA needs leaders who will do this work. Lamar is working at building up the treasury so that we can invest in this activity and promotional programs.
 
We still need full-time judges. If you are a list-reader and would still like to be involved as a judge only, please give me a call 856/988-9184.
 
Full-time judges would be a great addition to our training and certification classes.
 
Regards,

Eric.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Rick Wallace <mailto:rickwallace45 at hotmail.com>  
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: Performance Judging? (back to original discussion) 

(Back to Jim's original line of discussion...) 
 
How does one compare judging results when (as in most local contests) there are only 2 judges per round/class? When there's a spread, which judge is right? In a world where the judges oare often the 'best available' rather than ones who meet a standard, is there any value in such a comparison? 
 
For that matter, when there are three judges and one's score is significantly different from another, do we assume (with or without knowing the identities of the judges concerned) that the one 'different' judge is wrong? If so, why?
 
Is it more or less significant when one judge's score is different than the others' in ONE maneuver rather than across the entire flight? 
 
Eric has made great points in his points on this topic - especially about the fact that two judges will focus on different aspects of a maneuver, but frequently give very similar scores - for overtly different reasons. 
 
FWIW, some personal info on scores at the recent Nats (from a first year Masters Guy who finished REAL close to the bottom of the pack - and deserved to)
- One of my rounds had a spread across the three judges of more than 110 points. (Maybe some non-zero 'mercy' scores here? who knows?) 
- As a first time FAI Finals judge, one of the fnalists volunteered the information that his score spread for the round I judged was 11 or 12 points across 5 judges... 

I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of comparing the scores of a panel of judges -- without knowing their background, flying experience, judging experience, etc - and assuming that the 'low' guy is automatically wrong.  -- especially if this practice is institutionalized, and is recorded as 'facts' in the files of some or all of the judges concerned. 
 
It seems that recollections of my college statistics courses reminds me that this line of thinking will result not in recognition of the best absolute standard, but rather in creating a de facto standard of mediocrity... 
 
My gut says that the 'right' answer, unfortunately, is 
   - A REAL set of standards about what the rules say and mean - and Don seems well on the way to getting that done
   - An effective classroom instruction plan that makes those rules clear (and again, Don has done a great job in his 2005 Judge Certification packages for students and instructors) 
   - A REAL judge teaching program -that would involve practical exercise / live judging followed by discussion after each maneuver (lots of fuel burned there!). This is the part that seems to need the most progress. 
 
Understand the pain of driving hundreds of miles and not getting reasonable feedback on one's flights... especially in a world where we, the pilots, are judging each others' performance...   
 
just my $.02... 
Rick

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