[SPAM] RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05

Troy Newman troy_newman at msn.com
Mon May 17 13:41:03 AKDT 2004 

Dean,

I agree with you that the line needs to be wind corrected until 
sometime...when is that time? is the question. If you download the power 
point document you will probbaly have the same look on your face I had on 
mine.

As for the idea of ruddering the model back straight I don't see anything in 
any rules or judging documents to support this. I can see where all lines 
need to be wind corrected like Dean has quoted...and I see that the actual 
picture showing the model wind drifting. These documents are both from the 
HEAD guy in charge of the F3A committee on the rules....

I'm glad Don Ramsey does such a good job of finding out the facts. Sometimes 
we have new things come up in the rule book and those of us that have been 
doing it a while don't pick up on the subtle details of the changes.

Things change over time and in some cases the subtle details or not 
outlined. The FAI group  doesn't have the big sounding board that the AMA 
levels have. I bet almost everybody knows that next year the TO and Landing 
rules changed.

But let us take a vote on how many people forget or don't know at the first 
event next spring!

TN



>From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
>Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
>To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>Subject: [SPAM] RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
>Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:28:09 -0400
>
>Hi Troy,
>The FAI Judges' Guide does not say that maintaining a crab angle is a 
>downgrade. What it does say (see below) is that:
>
>1) It starts with a horizontal line ... we must assume it is a wind 
>corrected one.
>2) That after the point where the plane becomes near-stalled wind 
>correction is done.
>
>Now, the only question is whether the same heading should be maintained (no 
>changes in yaw) or whether the plane should be forcibly yawed back to 
>parallel with the runway just before the break. The guide is unclear, but 
>the long standing interpretation is to keep the pre-existing heading until 
>after the break.
>
>Regards to All,
>	Dean
>
>
>All spins begin and end with horizontal lines. In order to spin, the model 
>aircraft must be stalled. The entry is
>flown in a horizontal flight path with the nose-up attitude increasing as 
>the speed decreases. Drift of the model
>aircraft from the flight path at this point should not be downgraded, since 
>it is in a near-stalled condition.
>However, severe yawing is cause for downgrading. A climbing flight path 
>just prior to the spin must be
>downgraded, using the 1-point/15 degree rule. The nose then drops as the 
>model aircraft stalls. Simultaneously
>as the nose drops, the wing also drops in the direction of the spin. Drift 
>during the rotation of the spin should
>not be downgraded since the model aircraft is in a stalled condition, 
>provided the model aircraft does not drift
>outside the aerobatic zone.
>If the model aircraft does not stall or if the model aircraft is 
>snap-rolled into the spin, the manoeuvre is zeroed.
>If the model aircraft slides into the spin (is loathe to spin), the 
>manoeuvre must be downgraded by using the
>1/point per 15 degree rule. Forcing the model aircraft to spin in the 
>opposite direction as the initial rotation
>must be severely downgraded.
>After the defined number of turns, the stop of rotation is judged in the 
>same manner as for a roll, i.e. one point
>downgrade for each 15 degree deviation of heading.
>A vertical downward line of visible length must be held after the rotation 
>stops. The pull- or push-out is judged
>like a part-loop and if followed by a part-roll, should be separated by a 
>well-defined segment of straight flight.
>Remember that different models spin in different attitudes, and that the 
>attitude is not to be taken into
>consideration, as long as the model aircraft is stalled. Any reversals in 
>direction must be immediate, and if the
>model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the spin, the 
>manoeuvre is severely downgraded.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Troy Newman [mailto:troy_newman at msn.com]
>Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 3:53 PM
>To: discussion at nsrca.org
>Subject: RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
>
>
>My comment was that we in the USA are judging the spin that model is 
>crabbed
>into the wind.
>
>The TEAM Selection last year, NATS last year and so on the pilots were told
>that the crab was OK. The
>
>AMA rules indicate the model must maitain the crab angle and not drift 
>until
>the stall occurs.  BUT The FAI rules tell us..... as the model slows and
>before it stalls the maintaning of the crab angle becomes determental to 
>the
>geometry of the manuever. Since the model is in a near stalled condition it
>the wind drift is OK! Its the crabbing into the wind that makes the spins
>look funny and often sometimes hard to judge...This is extreme conditions.
>Now I would also acknowledge that drifting out to 300meters makes it tough
>to judge too!
>
>
>So the model fuse basically stays square (parralell in this case) to the
>flight line all the time...as the model approaches the stall break in the
>spin.
>
>I'm not pushing for one over the other in terms of what is correct. I am
>pushing that FAI needs to be judged on a standard at least equal to if not
>better than it is everywhere else in the world. The rules are what they are
>and input beyond that is not fair to the pilot expected to fly it.
>
>
>These power point documents were actually produced by Bob Skinner the
>chairman of the CIAM committee for F3A. He is from South Africa I believe.
>
>They were posted on the British site. Bob also made similar documents for
>the 2003 sequences.
>
>Troy
>
>
>
>
> >From: Marty King <mking46516 at yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
> >To: discussion at nsrca.org
> >Subject: RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
> >Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Troy,
> >
> >When you say differences is this not what all FAI judges world wide are
> >using? Or are you refering to how FAI and our current AMA rules differ? 
>Or
> >are the Brits feeding us wrong information?
> >
> >Marty King
> >NSRCA 2551
> >
> >Troy Newman <troy_newman at msn.com> wrote:
> >notice that in FAI spin entry is judging is not crabbed into the
> >wind...Model Remain parallel.
> >
> >Also that there are some other differences like roll rates need not be
> >constant in manuevers with varibale roll combos where there is only one
> >type
> >of a certain segment...example 4/8pt-slow roll oposite....but in a 3/4 
>slow
> >rolls in opposite they need to be the same.
> >
> >Also the sq loop with 1/2's up and dn and 2/4's on top and btm...the 
>1/2's
> >match and the 2/4's match.
> >
> >Just a couple little nuggets...there are lots of little differences.
> >
> >TN
> >
> >
> > >From: Marty King
> > >Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >Subject: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
> > >Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 07:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >I found this on the RC Canada board. These are power point 
>presentations
> >on
> > >Judging and the maneuvers for FAI. I found them very informative and a
> >good
> > >refresher. Those of you holding judging schools may want to review or 
>use
> > >these. They were created by the Great Britain Aerobatic Association. 
>They
> > >can be copied and saved to you local PC or laptop. You may need the
> > >additional fonts that are listed. My XP box didn't.
> > >
> > >http://members.shaw.ca/teamcanadaf3a/powerpoint/judgepres.ppt
> > >
> > >http://members.shaw.ca/teamcanadaf3a/powerpoint/FAIpres.ppt
> > >
> > >http://members.shaw.ca/teamcanadaf3a/powerpoint/fonts.zip
> > >
> > >I hope you take the time to view these,
> > >
> > >Marty King
> > >NSRCA 2551
> > >D-4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > >Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
> >
> >
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>
>
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