rules proposals final result

Keith Black tkeithb at comcast.net
Mon May 10 20:17:54 AKDT 2004 

> Perhaps we are missing something here and should create a survey in such a
> form that the Contest Board could read it and get a good "feel" for what
the
> pattern community is thinking....

I don't mean to be sarcastic, but that's pretty funny. Not only was this
suggested well before the vote (see my email below), but the survey was
publicly available to anyone that wanted to view it. If the contest board
members didn't know this then that's a disgrace!

Furthermore, one of the most controversial rules changes has the names of
John Fuqua, Ron Putte and Tony Stillman.  Certainly they were aware of the
NSRCA survey findings. I should point out that I've only been around for two
years and was not involved in the initial survey. I'm sure there's a good
explanation as to how this came about, but from a "then" outsider's
viewpoint this seems pretty ironic. It would seem as though we don't only
have an issue with the contest board but also an internal issue. If this is
the case then separating ourselves from the contest board may not solve all
of our problems.

Below is my email from November 2003 suggesting a plan of action to make
sure contest
board members know what our opinions are not only on our survey but on
externally
submitted proposals.

Keith

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Black" <tkeithb at comcast.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Landings and Take-off's - The vote!.:


> I would hope that the contest board members are privy to all the facts so
> they can make the best decisions. For example, if 80% of the NSRCA members
> vote against eliminating scored takeoff and landings, and we DON'T include
> it on our rules change proposal to the AMA, but an individual submits
their
> own proposal for this change and gets a few friends to email the contest
> board I'd hope they would be aware that 80% of the NSRCA are against it.
If
> they only knew about the one guy that submitted it and his friends emails
> then they my unwittingly vote for something that 80% of the NSRCA are
> against.
>
> Seems to me that the best way for the NSRCA to serve it's membership is to
> have an NSRCA poll of all private proposals not included on the NSRCA rule
> change proposal. This poll would be taken after the deadline to submit
> proposals to the AMA, but before the contest board meets to vote on the
> proposals. The results of this poll would then be given to the contest
board
> so they would know the NSRCA's opinion on all proposals, regardless of
> originator.
>
> Therefore, if I submitted a rule to drop half point scoring and I got
> everyone in my flying club (sport fliers included) to send the contest
board
> emails demanding this, then the NSRCA membership wouldn't get blind sided
by
> this proposal. I know we can all do this individually if we make the
effort
> to look up the proposals and send emails to our district rep., but it
would
> be much more effective as a group and the participation would be greater
> than just expecting everyone to research and email on their own.
>
> I guess you could call this the NSRCA "watch dog" approach.
>
> Keith


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Stillman" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: rules proposals final result


> Lance:
> On issue with the survey is that the survey results are not sent to the
> contest board.  We use them to formulate rules proposals, and those are
sent
> to the board.
>
> Perhaps we are missing something here and should create a survey in such a
> form that the Contest Board could read it and get a good "feel" for what
the
> pattern community is thinking....  This would then help them to better
> prepare to vote with the interests of the pattern community at heart.
>
>
> Tony Stillman
> Radio South
> 3702 N. Pace Blvd.
> Pensacola, FL 32505
> 1-800-962-7802
> www.radiosouthrc.com
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:50 PM
> Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
>
>
> > Tony,
> > No, I don't think you understand my position.  In re-reading my note, I
> > might not have been totally clear.  Here is a quote, " The NSRCA survey
is
> > designed to collect the opinions of the membership and we tend to view
it
> as
> > a democratic process."  I think the NSRCA survey provided needed
opinions
> > and most all of these were turned into proposals to be submitted to the
> next
> > level up: the contest board.
> >    What get me is that we are not working together as a team to make the
> > best of the AMA processes and do right for the NSRCA.  I don't know you
> > well, but I don't see you as subversive in the least.  I don't believe
> that
> > you would end run an NSRCA survey and submit your own proposal when the
> > popular vote disagreed with your personal opinion.
> > --Lance
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Tony Stillman" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> >
> >
> > > Lance:
> > > While I understand your position, I also understand that NSRCA does
not
> > > dictate rules to AMA for Pattern.  Maybe they should, but they don't.
> > > Because of that, ANY open AMA member can AND SHOULD submit rules
> proposals
> > > as they see fit.
> > >
> > > It is then important that quality people be appointed by the AMA VP to
> > serve
> > > as contest board members.
> > >
> > > They then get to vote.
> > >
> > > There have been several times that I didn't agree with an NSRCA
> proposal,
> > > but because I was the NSRCA President, I didn't submit an optional
> > proposal.
> > > However, if I was not an officer and felt like a rule needed to be
made,
> I
> > > should be free to submit any rules proposal that I want.
> > >
> > > Tony Stillman
> > > Radio South
> > > 3702 N. Pace Blvd.
> > > Pensacola, FL 32505
> > > 1-800-962-7802
> > > www.radiosouthrc.com
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:25 PM
> > > Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> > >
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > > The interesting thing is that the RCA05-05 TO/L rule change was
> > submitted
> > > by an NSRCA member that had full knowledge of the NSRCA survey
results.
> > The
> > > NSRCA survey is designed to collect the opinions of the membership and
> we
> > > tend to view it as a democratic process. But given the hierarchical
> > > reporting of the SIG to the AMA, someone not falling in step with the
> > survey
> > > results cna submit a proposal which gets the same consideration and
> > > visibility as change proposals submitted by this SIG as a result of
the
> > > survey.
> > > >    If this doesn't change, then it is doubly important that there is
> an
> > > active communication channel from the NSRCA to the contest board
> members.
> > I
> > > applaud Don Atwood for thinking, reflecting, soliciting input and
> voting.
> > I
> > > wish I knew how the others prepared for their vote.  I fear that they
> may
> > > just assume that if the proposal came from an NSRCA member, then it
> > reflects
> > > the will of the SIG.
> > > > --Lance
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > District 6 AVP
> > > > www.aeroslave.com
> > > > > It would be very interesting to hear the reasoning behind the
votes.
> > > > > Is it:
> > > > >  apathy?
> > > > >  ignorance?
> > > > >  some logical reasoning?
> > > > >  an effort to restrict interest & growth?
> > > > >  some personal vendetta?
> > > > >  a perceived threat to AMA or some element thereof?
> > > > >  jealousy?
> > > > >  or maybe even a just a need to show who is really the boss....
> > > > >  All of the above?
> > > > >
> > > > > Considering how helpful and considerate some of the Muncie folks
> are,
> > I
> > > know
> > > > > the apparent hostility to the Pattern discipline is not unanimous.
> > > > > Perhaps the intended message is that the NSRCA exists to serve the
> AMA
> > > > > rather than the membership. The only viable relationship is for
the
> > > NSRCA to
> > > > > be positioned to serve both.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps the time has come for two sets of rules... Nats Rules(AMA)
> and
> > > NSRCA
> > > > > Rules. The NSRCA rules would reflect the needs of the membership.
> The
> > > > > management of the governing body (AMA) has abandoned the
> > responsibility
> > > of
> > > > > leadership.
> > > > >
> > > > > We can allow the current rulings to weaken us or we can use the
> > > adversarial
> > > >
> > > > > position to strengthen us. If we allow the rulings to divide us,
we
> > are
> > > sure
> > > > > to lose whatever clout we have now. If we hang together, we can
make
> > > this a
> > > > > battle they will regret winning.
> > > > >
> > > > > John Ferrell
> > > > > http://DixieNC.US
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > From: "Ron Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
> > > > > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > > > > Cc: "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua at gdsys.net>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:41 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On May 6, 2004, at 9:26 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That was decided BEFORE this vote.  It was NOT on the ballot
> > (Since
> > > > > > > I'm new to the process I can't answer why...I just know I
didn't
> > get
> > > > > > > to vote on it (I surely would have said just...I've wanted it
> for
> > a
> > > > > > > long time)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I submitted the initial proposal, which included an annex of
> > maneuver
> > > > > > descriptions and maneuver schedules, controlled by the NSRCA.
> Steve
> > > > > > Kaluf sent it to the AMA Executive Council, recommending that
they
> > > >
> > > > > > refuse to accept it, so they did.  I was so PO'd that I washed
my
> > > hands
> > > > > > of it.  John Fuqua and Tony Stillman took the proposal and
rewrote
> > it,
> > > > > > giving the R/C Aerobatics contest board final approval of
anything
> > > > > > NSRCA came up with (we can't be trusted to write maneuver
> > descriptions
> > > > > > and schedules without parental supervision).  The vote on that
> > > proposal
> > > > > > failed because some of the contest board members FAILED TO VOTE.
> > > > > > That's why we are where we are.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ron Van Putte
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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