rules proposals final result

patterndude at comcast.net patterndude at comcast.net
Mon May 10 15:25:25 AKDT 2004 

Bill, Bill, Bill,
You are missing the exquisite beauty of this.  But you are naive.  Please look at who submitted the proposal RC05-05.
--Lance

--
District 6 AVP
www.aeroslave.com
> Joe:
> Your logic is inescapable.  I don't think those folks are existing in a 
> vacuum.  They knew.  They knew.    Bill Glaze
> 
> Joe Lachowski wrote:
> 
> > Lance/Tony
> >
> > The results of the survey were published in the K-Factor, on the NSRCA 
> > website, forwarded to the NSRCA Board, and forwarded to John Fuqua, 
> > Contest Board Chairman.  In one way or the order the contest board had 
> > access to the results.
> >
> > A number of the board members are NSRCA members. The should have seen 
> > the results in the K-Factor. Also, John Fuqua could have forwarded the 
> > results to the board members. Whether he did or didn't is another 
> > story. I've got to believe based on these facts that the board members 
> > had to have known  how the membership felt on all these issues.
> >
> >
> >> From: "Tony Stillman" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
> >> Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> >> Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> >> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:01:14 -0500
> >>
> >> Lance:

> >> On issue with the survey is that the survey results are not sent to the
> >> contest board.  We use them to formulate rules proposals, and those 
> >> are sent
> >> to the board.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we are missing something here and should create a survey in 
> >> such a
> >> form that the Contest Board could read it and get a good "feel" for 
> >> what the
> >> pattern community is thinking....  This would then help them to better
> >> prepare to vote with the interests of the pattern community at heart.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tony Stillman
> >> Radio South
> >> 3702 N. Pace Blvd.
> >> Pensacola, FL 32505
> >> 1-800-962-7802
> >> www.radiosouthrc.com
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:50 PM
> >> Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> >>
> >>
> >> > Tony,
> >> > No, I don't think you understand my position.  In re-reading my 
> >> note, I
> >> > might not have been totally clear.  Here is a quote, " The NSRCA 

> >> survey is
> >> > designed to collect the opinions of the membership and we tend to 
> >> view it
> >> as
> >> > a democratic process."  I think the NSRCA survey provided needed 
> >> opinions
> >> > and most all of these were turned into proposals to be submitted to 
> >> the
> >> next
> >> > level up: the contest board.
> >> >    What get me is that we are not working together as a team to 
> >> make the
> >> > best of the AMA processes and do right for the NSRCA.  I don't know 
> >> you
> >> > well, but I don't see you as subversive in the least.  I don't believe
> >> that
> >> > you would end run an NSRCA survey and submit your own proposal when 
> >> the
> >> > popular vote disagreed with your personal opinion.
> >> > --Lance
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Tony Stillman" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
> >> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> >> > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:22 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Lance:

> >> > > While I understand your position, I also understand that NSRCA 
> >> does not
> >> > > dictate rules to AMA for Pattern.  Maybe they should, but they 
> >> don't.
> >> > > Because of that, ANY open AMA member can AND SHOULD submit rules
> >> proposals
> >> > > as they see fit.
> >> > >
> >> > > It is then important that quality people be appointed by the AMA 
> >> VP to
> >> > serve
> >> > > as contest board members.
> >> > >
> >> > > They then get to vote.
> >> > >
> >> > > There have been several times that I didn't agree with an NSRCA
> >> proposal,
> >> > > but because I was the NSRCA President, I didn't submit an optional
> >> > proposal.
> >> > > However, if I was not an officer and felt like a rule needed to 
> >> be made,
> >> I
> >> > > should be free to submit any rules proposal that I want.
> >> > >
> >> > > Tony Stillman
> >> > > Radio South
> >> > > 3702 N. Pace Blvd.
> >> > > Pensacola, FL 32505
> >> > > 1-800-962-7802
> >> > > www.radiosouthrc.com
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----

> >> > > From: <patterndude at comcast.net>
> >> > > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> >> > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:25 PM
> >> > > Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > John,
> >> > > > The interesting thing is that the RCA05-05 TO/L rule change was
> >> > submitted
> >> > > by an NSRCA member that had full knowledge of the NSRCA survey 
> >> results.
> >> > The
> >> > > NSRCA survey is designed to collect the opinions of the 
> >> membership and
> >> we
> >> > > tend to view it as a democratic process. But given the hierarchical
> >> > > reporting of the SIG to the AMA, someone not falling in step with 
> >> the
> >> > survey
> >> > > results cna submit a proposal which gets the same consideration and
> >> > > visibility as change proposals submitted by this SIG as a result 
> >> of the
> >> > > survey.
> >> > > >    If this doesn't change, then it is doubly important that 
> >> there is
> >> an
> >> > > active communication channel from the NSRCA to the contest board
> >> members.
> >> > I

> >> > > applaud Don Atwood for thinking, reflecting, soliciting input and
> >> voting.
> >> > I
> >> > > wish I knew how the others prepared for their vote.  I fear that 
> >> they
> >> may
> >> > > just assume that if the proposal came from an NSRCA member, then it
> >> > reflects
> >> > > the will of the SIG.
> >> > > > --Lance
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > District 6 AVP
> >> > > > www.aeroslave.com
> >> > > > > It would be very interesting to hear the reasoning behind the 
> >> votes.
> >> > > > > Is it:
> >> > > > >  apathy?
> >> > > > >  ignorance?
> >> > > > >  some logical reasoning?
> >> > > > >  an effort to restrict interest & growth?
> >> > > > >  some personal vendetta?
> >> > > > >  a perceived threat to AMA or some element thereof?
> >> > > > >  jealousy?
> >> > > > >  or maybe even a just a need to show who is really the boss....
> >> > > > >  All of the above?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Considering how helpful and considerate some of the Muncie folks
> >> are,
> >> > I
> >> > > know

> >> > > > > the apparent hostility to the Pattern discipline is not 
> >> unanimous.
> >> > > > > Perhaps the intended message is that the NSRCA exists to 
> >> serve the
> >> AMA
> >> > > > > rather than the membership. The only viable relationship is 
> >> for the
> >> > > NSRCA to
> >> > > > > be positioned to serve both.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Perhaps the time has come for two sets of rules... Nats 
> >> Rules(AMA)
> >> and
> >> > > NSRCA
> >> > > > > Rules. The NSRCA rules would reflect the needs of the 
> >> membership.
> >> The
> >> > > > > management of the governing body (AMA) has abandoned the
> >> > responsibility
> >> > > of
> >> > > > > leadership.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We can allow the current rulings to weaken us or we can use the
> >> > > adversarial
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > position to strengthen us. If we allow the rulings to divide 
> >> us, we
> >> > are
> >> > > sure
> >> > > > > to lose whatever clout we have now. If we hang together, we 
> >> can make
> >> > > this a

> >> > > > > battle they will regret winning.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > John Ferrell
> >> > > > > http://DixieNC.US
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > From: "Ron Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
> >> > > > > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> >> > > > > Cc: "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua at gdsys.net>
> >> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:41 PM
> >> > > > > Subject: Re: rules proposals final result
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On May 6, 2004, at 9:26 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > That was decided BEFORE this vote.  It was NOT on the ballot
> >> > (Since
> >> > > > > > > I'm new to the process I can't answer why...I just know I 
> >> didn't
> >> > get
> >> > > > > > > to vote on it (I surely would have said just...I've 
> >> wanted it
> >> for
> >> > a
> >> > > > > > > long time)
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I submitted the initial proposal, which included an annex of
> >> > maneuver
> >> > > > > > descriptions and maneuver schedules, controlled by the NSRCA.

> >> Steve
> >> > > > > > Kaluf sent it to the AMA Executive Council, recommending 
> >> that they
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > > refuse to accept it, so they did.  I was so PO'd that I 
> >> washed my
> >> > > hands
> >> > > > > > of it.  John Fuqua and Tony Stillman took the proposal and 
> >> rewrote
> >> > it,
> >> > > > > > giving the R/C Aerobatics contest board final approval of 
> >> anything
> >> > > > > > NSRCA came up with (we can't be trusted to write maneuver
> >> > descriptions
> >> > > > > > and schedules without parental supervision).  The vote on that
> >> > > proposal
> >> > > > > > failed because some of the contest board members FAILED TO 
> >> VOTE.
> >> > > > > > That's why we are where we are.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Ron Van Putte
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
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