Charging concerns/questions with NMP Lithium Ion batteries

Mon May 10 02:47:54 AKDT 2004

Your pretty close with this one Kieth!
  Just beware of the "Glossy ADs"

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Keith Black
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 12:19 AM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Charging concerns/questions with NMP Lithium Ion batteries

I have no inside knowledge to answer to your question, but I'll just
venture a guess... Answer: R&D and QA budget. 

Companies who sell laptops, PDA's, cell phones, etc. are typically huge
companies with enormous R&D departments. Their entire business is
inventing new technologies. Part of their product requirements for
mobile devices are power systems that will support the product x hours,
weight less than y amount, etc. etc.... AND NOT CATCH ON FIRE! Sure, all
companies will put out defective devices periodically, but they have an
intensive development and Quality Assurance process that attempts to
eliminate all problems, especially user injury. They also have
warehouses of lawyers telling them they better not kill anyone!

Disclaimer: The following is a fictional account that I just made up out
of thin air. (but I bet I'm pretty close)

The RC industry is much easier to break into for smaller players than
the big industries listed above. Some of these players innovate with new
ideas, designs, etc., but many are just savvy businessmen that see the
opportunity to create a business by repackaging and reselling existing
technology. I'm not knocking savvy businessmen that repackage and
resell, many millionaires have been created from doing this in many many
industries and it takes a special person to see the opportunity and
execute an idea to make a business successful. I respect this ability.

However, in the case of the RC battery industry it's led to products
being released that are unsafe due to virtually no R&D or QA process.
Think about how we got here, there were numerous individuals that saw
how ridiculously expensive NiCad and NiMH battery packs were and
realized they could get raw cells for a fraction of the cost. Why not
buy some, solder them together and make a business out of it? Numerous
business minded hobbyist did and ended up creating companies that
specialize in selling these packs, no harm done.

Selling NiCads and NiMH will generate a few extra bucks, but it's not
exactly a home run. The big win in business is being an early adopter of
new technology and becoming the leading name brand. Enter the new
lithium technology. Some very savvy business guys clearly saw this new
technology and figured they could build a business (or grow an existing
business) by offering the new miracle battery, so they did just as the
NiCad and NiMH guys did, gather information on the cells from the
manufactures, do a little testing, solder cells together and sell them.
The only problem is, these powerful cells also create powerful fires.

End of fictional account.

Today there are some RC battery manufactures that are offering circuitry
to prevent overload induced fires, this is a great thing and hopefully
will eventually make lithium batteries as safe for RC use as they are
for the laptop I'm using to type this email. Others companies selling to
the RC industry still have no safeguards. 

Are the safeguards used RC manufactures as thorough as those used by the
main-stream industries? I don't know, but I wish I did.  Are their
testing procedures as rigorous as the big companies? I don't know.  Is
the budget for safety as extensive? Is the brain power working on safety
in RC applications equivalent? 

These are all questions that I certainly can't answer, but for our sake
I'd hope the answer to all will eventually be yes.

I'm sure I've pissed at least someone off with this email, that's not my
intention. This is just my "wild" guess as to why we're where we are.

Keith Black

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Charging concerns/questions with NMP Lithium Ion batteries

I have tried to stay out of most of this discussion but something is
gnawing at me. I have asked this question before, but don't believe I
have gotten an answer. Maybe no one on the list knows 

Since Li-ion and Li-poly technology is widely used in cameras and cell
phones, and these are recharged all  the time (in the home and without
special power supplies like separate 12 volt sources and such) with
extremely safe circuitry, why is it that the folks who offer these same
battery types to us, use charging circuitry that isn't so bullet
proof???

Certainly currents and voltages are different in some applications, but
the chemistry is the same. And Lithium metal will burn with ferocious
intensity whether 20 grams are exposed or 10 times that amount. The heat
is enough to burn your plane or house either way.

Matt K

Subj:Re: Charging concerns/questions with NMP Lithium Ion batteries 
Date:5/9/2004 12:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:kerlock at comcast.net
Reply-to:discussion at nsrca.org
To:discussion at nsrca.org
Sent from the Internet 

First off, I'm not looking for compassion. That was a simple explanation
as
to why a guy who is normally cheery, laughing and all smiles could go
into a
practically homicidal rage over a smart a* comment

Secondly and most importantly, I'd like you to explain to me, with as
much
detail as you'd like, how my position is extreme in any way, shape or
form.
To me, an extreme position would be "ban lithium batteries". I have
never
said or proposed any such thing. I'd like to know how recommending
caution
and informing the uninformed could POSSIBLY be viewed as extreme. Or is
anyone even bothering to read, or are they just glancing and knee
jerking?

And I don't need any type of apology, but thanks for the thought. I mean
it.

-Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Charging concerns/questions with NMP Lithium Ion batteries

> We can always start over. I am sometimes guilty of "picking on"
someone
> because their reaction is extreme. I see now that I should investigate
> conditions further to assure that what I intend as good natured joking
is
> not taken as insensitive and cruel. Fortunately, it was not I that was
the
> perpetrator this time, but it could have been.

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