Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion

Thu Dec 30 12:11:34 AKST 2004

Consistent snap rolls.....how much skill....how much luck?

Do I read from the responses that the consensus is that snap rolls are
precision maneuvers?   I believe that may be true in full-scale
aerobatics particularly in slower snapping aircraft because you can
actually see outside and judge entrance timing based on real time entry
speed (ASI) and judge exit because of roll rate perceived via outside
reference directly relative to the horizon without any parallax as you
would get from our ground perspective.   I'm trying to say that the
pattern airplanes that I've flown snap differently and usually quickly.
I've seen very good pilots who feel a real sense of accomplishment (or
luck) when they hit the snap right on....however, I still believe to a
degree that it might be a little more luck than precision to hit them
consistently.  It seems a shame to have a pilot miss an exit by 5
degrees to get a 1/2 point hit....particularly when the perspective of a
5 degree bank at 150 meters away could vary with judges and parallax
considerations. (Or that a given judge may not see enough conical
rotation of the tail) 
Please consider that I have nothing but admiration for the FAI pilots in
the finals when reading the following: Consider how conservative  stall
turns were performed during the FAI finals ( yes it was intelligent to
fly them that way)  you will notice that very few pilots flew great
stall turns, they were more like tight wingovers with the reason being
obvious....who wants to risk a flopped zero at the level where you have
very few points separating the standings.   Snap rolls seem to have more
risk.

I would love to see the consensus on the following questions:

1) Do snap rolls add or detract from the legitimacy of judging precision
aerobatic pilots capabilities?
2) Do snap rolls add to the credibility of precision aerobatics?

Respectfully submitted by a new guy,
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bjorn Lehnardt
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:04 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during
snap rolls discussion

Bob,

A good three point shooter in the NBA has mastered a maneuver that is
uncontrollable except for the first part, yet few question the validity
of his skill or it's part in the game.  Figuring out and mastering the
requirements for proper setup-entry under many different circumstances
is what makes a three point shot or a snap roll such an interesting part
of the game. 

I would seem a real shame to say that pattern and pattern flyers are not
capable is mastering the art and science of the stalled maneuvers.  

Snaps are still fairly new to pattern and so growing pains are to be
expected.  Resistance is natural and will go away with practice.  That
both flying practice and judging practice.

Bob Pastorello <rcaerobob at cox.net> wrote:

That is an excellent point, Chris.  And your modesty to not add
"Intermediate National Champion" to your credentials is noted.
    The issue of a virtually-uncontrollable maneuver EXCEPT for entry
and exit, does bring a valid question about it's place in our game.  I
think Ed Miller mentioned (sorry if wrong) that longer-duration
maneuvers with more easily-visible segments have their OWN level of
difficulty.
    In '99, when I was working on the Rules Committee, and we were
designing new sequences one of the suggestions in Masters was a Center
maneuver, a square loop with 2/4 on U/D, 1/2 on horizontal legs.  We
were TRASHED for even suggesting such a thing!!!
    The reason I mention that is to consider difficulty and pilot
challenge, wouldn't most of us agree that the square loop I describe
would be more easily judged, and more challenging for the majority of
pilots than the downline SINGLE snap we have in '05 ???

Since we're in a rules cycle year, maybe this is a good time to rethink
the "required elements" of every class, and look more for "what do guys
WANT to have in the sequence?"

Great thread starter, Chris.

Bob Pastorello
NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
rcaerobob at cox.net
www.rcaerobats.net <http://www.rcaerobats.net/> 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: White,  <mailto:chris at ssd.fsi.com> Chris 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:49 AM
Subject: Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during
snap rolls discussion

Please excuse me if I'm repeating, or committing a "faux pas" ( I think
I spelled that right:) ) ....but I am really interested in hearing
opinions to the following:

1) Do snap rolls add or detract from the legitimacy of judging precision
aerobatic pilots capabilities?
2) Do snap rolls add to the credibility of precision aerobatics?

I'm new to the game, but a "stalled" maneuver is a maneuver that is not
"flown on the wing" .  An overwhelming percentage of the other maneuver
segments in our patterns are flown on the wing and are able to be judged
accurately and with a minimum of "impression" influence.  Since the Snap
Roll it is not "flown" through it is not fully controlled....lack of
control indicates somewhat of a wildcard that penalizes capable pilots
experiencing a "bad" maneuver.  

I have seen many good snap rolls in competition, some done by great
pilots, some by new guys.....my question is: Should there be a "wild
card" allowance?  Is anyone capable of flying consistent snap rolls that
are consistently judgeable to clear and concise requirements?   I
believe I'm hearing an overwhelming "NO".  If the answer is no, then
maybe they should be removed.

I fly RC pattern because in my opinion it is more graceful and precise
in appearance as compared to IMAC.... not that I don't respect IMAC
pilots capabilities and enjoy the show.  But, I sometimes I wonder how
"Snap Rolls" fit into RC Pattern....and it sounds as if I'm not the only
one.   (I like to see snaps....I just feel there are variables beyond
the pilots control which penalize inconsistently)  I think a pilot
should be judged on control....not inertial physics. (is that a real
term????:) )

Just my thoughts and question to the group....respectfully submitted,
Chris

(as a CFII, airshow nut and pattern guy and whatever other credibility I
can throw in:) )

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ed Miller
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:11 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)

Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here last year
too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm about to say
will at the very least be controversial. That's fine with me as I think
we need to think outside the box more often. My wife enjoys watching
figure skating. Being the "supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch
for a bit with her. It seems in figure skating, the multiple rotation
jumps, triples and even quadruple rotation variations is where all the
judging ( and viewing ) emphasis is placed in a skaters routine. It also
seems the judging is focused on 2 things, the entry to the jump and
"sticking" the landing. Frankly, those that say they can see every
element of the skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain
happens too fast. I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days I
could pick up the stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph.
I'll admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick
up all the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in real time ( we
all can when they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was
introduced into precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had the
same problems judging snaps as professional figure skating judges have
judging triple toe loops. I have watched ( and learned some ) from the
real snap masters, aka Lockhart and Pappas, yet, when in the judges
chair I look for departure in pitch ( entry ) and "the landing " of the
maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me, we've introduced snaps into precision
aerobatics to separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers like me from
the gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but in fact
what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging criteria. These
talented flyers will find the setup and stick movements to present a
maneuver such that it defies the laws of gravity. However, most of us
are only humans and as judges, only judge what can we realistically see
and honestly assess in a snap roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done
and performed rotate at such a speed that again, the exit is the focus.
Once in awhile you can pick up the obvious aileron roll exit. There are
many more elements of a snap roll besides entry and exit yet as I
read/delete/read/delete, etc. the discussion we are having here, it
boils down to entry and exit positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2
rolls in opposite directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly
takes a lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap
rolls, has many more places for the pilot to screw up that are EASILY
VISIBLE to the judges besides the entry and exit points. That's
precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern was always smooth and graceful
until someone decided as the FAI does, so must the AMA. Some will say
it's progress, new maneuvers, it's just raising the bar to let the cream
rise to the top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the cream.
Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.
Ed M.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Doug  <mailto:seefo at san.rr.com> Cronkhite 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)

The rules for family 9.9 are as follows:

"Snap rolls represent one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is
primarily due to two factors: (1) the "snapping" characteristics of
different types of aircraft are unique; and (2), snap rolls are a high
energy maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps happen so fast, in fact,
that is is virtually impossible for a judge to determine the exact order
in which events occur, especially at the beginning of the snap. There
are no criteria, therefore, for seeing nose and wing movement initiated
at the same time as with the other autorotation family, Spins."

The rest of the paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the
complete revolutions and so forth but there is no criteria whatsoever
for line displacement. This would be impossible to deal with actually
since aircraft snap so differently from one type to another. A top level
unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or Sukhoi displaces very little,
but people flying lower classes in Decathlons, Clipped Wing Cubs and so
forth displace a great deal in a snap. There's just no way to fairly
judge with a single standard across all aircraft types.

-Doug

  _____  

From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Dean Pappas
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:15 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)

Thanks Doug,
You don't happen to have the piece of text in a form that could be
pasted into this forum, do ya'?

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Doug Cronkhite
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:14 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)

No track downgrade Dean. Since a snap roll is a yaw induced maneuver (or
should be at least) it's nigh-impossible to actually snap the airplane
and not displace the line a little. Especially when you consider the low
weight and inertia of our airplanes as compared to full scale.

-Doug

  _____  

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