Snap rolls

[ronlock at comcast.net]

Agreed.

When our pattern judging hats are on, it's not our task to figure out if the model design is such that it doesn't show a break, or isn't set up to show a break, or isn't flown with technique to show a break.   

We judge maneuver elements as best we can without making allowances for model limitations that might be perceived or claimed.

Judging snaps is tough, in part because it happens so fast.   I recall seeing a dozen snaps by full scale AT-6 Texans - the snaps were slow and most pattern judges would be able to judge them accurately and consistently.

Given the speed of a model snap, getting accurate and consistent judging remains a big challenge.  Lets continue looking for improvements in judge training, lets design schedules with fewer snaps, lets put the snaps in visible locations.

I don't want to see snaps removed from AMA, if they stay in F3A.  Masters class-   is, can, and should be, a step on the way to F3A for those moving on.

A thought for discussion- might we put a lower K-Factor on maneuvers with snaps in AMA schedules?   They remain for pilot challenge and judge training, but the impact of imperfect judging is reduced.

Later, Ron Lockhart

-------------- Original message -------------- 

Wait a minute, we are not talking about flying Pattern with Decathlons and Cubs. Pattern models are supposed to be "thoroughbred" designs. We have very few limits as to what we actually design in. On the other hand, Scale models don't have that "free to design as you please" luxury. 

Pattern planes have no excuses. I see no reason the desired features can't be designed in to facilitate desired outcome.

MattK

In a message dated 12/29/2004 5:10:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, d.pappas at kodeos.com writes:
Thanks Doug.
And yet we know that the full scale guys' snaps happen in geologic time, compared to us!
Imagine the plight of diving judges.
Maybe the solution is to "wimp-out" the snap description, and allow anything that looks like a train wreck ... NAAAAAH!

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 
-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Doug Cronkhite
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


The rules for family 9.9 are as follows:

"Snap rolls represent one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is primarily due to two factors: (1) the "snapping" characteristics of different types of aircraft are unique; and (2), snap rolls are a high energy maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps happen so fast, in fact, that is is virtually impossible for a judge to determine the exact order in which events occur, especially at the beginning of the snap. There are no criteria, therefore, for seeing nose and wing movement initiated at the same time as with the other autorotation family, Spins."

The rest of the paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the complete revolutions and so forth but there is no criteria whatsoever for line displacement. This would be impossible to deal with actually since aircraft snap so differently from one type to another. A top level unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or Sukhoi displaces very little, but people flying lower classes in Decathlons, Clipped Wing Cubs and so forth displace a great deal in a snap. There's just no way to fairly judge with a single standard across all aircraft types.

-Doug
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