Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)

[Ed Miller]

When IBM was a real company, Watson's introduced the "Think" motto. I still have a desk paper weight from those days. Though my IBM days are behind me, I never forgot the best lesson I ever learned from the pre-Gerstner IBM. I suppose many are doing just that. If so, I succeeded.
Ed.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Pavlick 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:29 PM
  Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


  Is that all you guys can come up with? There hasn't been a post to the list in almost 10 minutes! Why is it so QUIET????

  John Pavlick
  http://www.idseng.com
    

    -----Original Message-----
    From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
    Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:20 PM
    To: discussion at nsrca.org
    Subject: Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


    Bravo, Ed!  The figure skating analogy is exactly what I use when I'm describing pattern to a non-flyer.  They understand the idea of "compulsories", which is basically what we're doing.  They understand complexity, also.
        AND - nearly everyone understands that it is the ULTIMATE in "impression" judging.  In fact, in many of those events they have a "technical" score (for us it would be geometry, accuracy, exits/entries, etc) and an "artistic" score (which for us would be all the elements of presentation, timing, finesse, "touch", etc)
        Ed, I for one, am not at all afraid of joining your comment about us "following" the FAI and it's effects on our maneuver choices.  We've lost a considerable amount of the grace and "artistry" that precision aerobatics CAN have.    
        And by doing so, as you so astutely noted, we have been FORCED to introduce judging criteria, parameters, and details that 90% of us mere mortals cannot POSSIBLY differentiate, much less SEE.

    Great comment, Ed!! Thank you for posting it!

    Bob Pastorello
    NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
    rcaerobob at cox.net
    www.rcaerobats.net


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Ed Miller 
      To: discussion at nsrca.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:10 PM
      Subject: Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


      Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here last year too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm about to say will at the very least be controversial. That's fine with me as I think we need to think outside the box more often. My wife enjoys watching figure skating. Being the "supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch for a bit with her. It seems in figure skating, the multiple rotation jumps, triples and even quadruple rotation variations is where all the judging ( and viewing ) emphasis is placed in a skaters routine. It also seems the judging is focused on 2 things, the entry to the jump and "sticking" the landing. Frankly, those that say they can see every element of the skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens too fast. I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days I could pick up the stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph. I'll admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick up all the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in real time ( we all can when they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was introduced into precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had the same problems judging snaps as professional figure skating judges have judging triple toe loops. I have watched ( and learned some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and Pappas, yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in pitch ( entry ) and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me, we've introduced snaps into precision aerobatics to separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers like me from the gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but in fact what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging criteria. These talented flyers will find the setup and stick movements to present a maneuver such that it defies the laws of gravity. However, most of us are only humans and as judges, only judge what can we realistically see and honestly assess in a snap roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done and performed rotate at such a speed that again, the exit is the focus. Once in awhile you can pick up the obvious aileron roll exit. There are many more elements of a snap roll besides entry and exit yet as I read/delete/read/delete, etc. the discussion we are having here, it boils down to entry and exit positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in opposite directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly  takes a lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap rolls, has many more places for the pilot to screw up that are EASILY VISIBLE to the judges besides the entry and exit points. That's precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern was always smooth and graceful until someone decided as the FAI does, so must the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new maneuvers, it's just raising the bar to let the cream rise to the top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the cream. Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.
      Ed M
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