Judging questions

[george kennie]

Keith,
Yup!

Keith Black wrote:

> Don, I have no questions related to the overall judging of the square
> loop that you described, however I do question the theory of centered
> maneuvers beginning as you pass center. In my opinion that would
> depend on the maneuver. A loop or avalanche would begin at center. The
> square... perhaps since you have to complete the last corner and fly
> straight to complete the maneuver. However, consider a reverse Cuban
> or a slow roll, clearly these maneuvers begin before center. Even the
> centered stall turn in masters, since you have to match the radii
> entering and exiting, clearly this maneuver starts before
> center. Maybe the beginning of a maneuver should be considered as
> where the maneuver deviates from the straight line prior to the
> maneuver. Probably just semantics, but food for thought. Keith  -----
> Original Message -----
>
>      From: Don Ramsey
>      To: discussion at nsrca.org
>      Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:18 PM
>      Subject: Re: Judging questions
>       David, I'm sure you were told in the judging seminar that
>      all radii of a multiple radii maneuver must be the same for
>      no downgrade.  This is not a rule interpretation but a
>      stated rule of judging just as all roll rates must be the
>      same in multiple roll maneuvers for AMA.  It would be an
>      interpretation if the first radius was used to downgrade the
>      others even if they were all the same.  The first radius is
>      only used as a comparison to the others. Any radius of a
>      multiple radii maneuver that is different from the others is
>      downgraded. It makes no difference if the inconsistent one
>      happens to be first.  Although this puts a burden on the
>      judge that's the way it is.  To make the point, suppose a
>      square loop is flown with the first and third radii the same
>      and the 2nd and 4th the same but different from 1 and 3.
>      There are 2 downgrades but does it matter if the downgrades
>      are for the 1st and 3rd radii or the 2nd and 4th?  Same
>      square loop but all radii are different.  There are now 3
>      downgrades and does it matter which radii you consider
>      correct?  Same square but all radii are the same except the
>      first.  There is now only one downgrade for the first
>      radius.  The point deduction would depend on the severity of
>      the difference. This question is the same as asking if the
>      first point of a 4 point roll sets the rate for the
>      remainder of the maneuver. If you allow the first element to
>      set the standard for the remainder of the maneuver you are
>      making an interpretation of the rules and that should not be
>      done.  If the roll rate changes it's a downgrade.  For
>      instance, on the point roll say the first roll is slow, the
>      second faster, the third faster still and the roll out the
>      same rate as the roll to inverted.  What's the downgrade for
>      roll rate?  2 rolls had the same rate and 2 were different
>      so there is 2 downgrades and one of the downgrades is for
>      the rate of the first point.  The point deduction would
>      depend on the severity of the difference. Same for the line
>      length in a square loop.  The first length does not set the
>      length for the others, it is only used as a comparison to
>      the others.  I've been told not to say, "This is the way I
>      would do it," but this is the way I would judge a square
>      loop.  Every time the model passes in front of the judge
>      there is a maneuver to be executed.  That indicates to me
>      the square loop starts at center and draws half of the
>      horizontal line.  If the model then flies a long line from
>      center out, I'm suspicious that the vertical line might be
>      short or the maneuver is going to be off center.  As the
>      pull (push) is made watch the radius for comparison.  Now
>      watch the vertical for lenght and comparison to other
>      lengths to be flown and check the track for vertical.  As
>      the next radius is drawn, compare to the first.  If
>      different take a deduction depending on the severity of the
>      defect.  Compare the next horizontal line lengtht to the
>      lenght of the vertical and watch the track for any
>      deviation.  If different assign another downgrade based on
>      the severity of the defect.  Compare the 3rd radius to the
>      other 2 and make your adjustment based on that radius
>      comparison.  Now compare the last vertical to the other
>      vertical and horizontal and note the track.  Make any
>      downgrades necessary.  Compare the last radius to the others
>      and note exit track.  Determine centering and make
>      downgrades if necessary.  Actually centering could have been
>      determined when the second vertical was started.  Watch the
>      exit line and write your score. Wow!  No where in this did I
>      say compare to the first radius or line length. My thougth
>      process might go like this.  Model is parallel to flight
>      line passing center and there is a line between the last
>      maneuver so maneuver is now a 10.  First radius large and
>      track is vetical, 10.  Note line lenght.  2nd radius smaller
>      than first but not too much, 9.  Exit track is off about 10
>      degees, 8.5.  Horizontal line is considerably longer than
>      vertical, 7.  Radius is about the same as 2nd radius, no
>      downgrade, 7.  Vertical tracks vertical, no downgrade, 7.
>      Last radius is sharp, different from 1st, 2nd and 3rd
>      radius, 6.  Track is parallel and exit line is on track, 6.
>      Write a 6 for the score. This was more than I meant to say,
>      hope someone reads it. Don
>
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