Judging questions

[Don Ramsey]

Keith,

Yes, I can hardly disagee with your assessment for centering except there are times when my definition needs to be applied also.  This would, as the rules currently stand, probably be an interpretation and should be considered by the full Judging Committee if required.

Don

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Black 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 3:19 PM
  Subject: Re: Judging questions


  Don,

  I have no questions related to the overall judging of the square loop that you described, however I do question the theory of centered maneuvers beginning as you pass center. In my opinion that would depend on the maneuver. A loop or avalanche would begin at center. The square... perhaps since you have to complete the last corner and fly straight to complete the maneuver. However, consider a reverse Cuban or a slow roll, clearly these maneuvers begin before center. Even the centered stall turn in masters, since you have to match the radii entering and exiting, clearly this maneuver starts before center. 

  Maybe the beginning of a maneuver should be considered as where the maneuver deviates from the straight line prior to the maneuver. 

  Probably just semantics, but food for thought. 

  Keith


  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Don Ramsey 
    To: discussion at nsrca.org 
    Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:18 PM
    Subject: Re: Judging questions


    David,

    I'm sure you were told in the judging seminar that all radii of a multiple radii maneuver must be the same for no downgrade.  This is not a rule interpretation but a stated rule of judging just as all roll rates must be the same in multiple roll maneuvers for AMA.  It would be an interpretation if the first radius was used to downgrade the others even if they were all the same.  The first radius is only used as a comparison to the others. Any radius of a multiple radii maneuver that is different from the others is downgraded. It makes no difference if the inconsistent one happens to be first.  Although this puts a burden on the judge that's the way it is.  To make the point, suppose a square loop is flown with the first and third radii the same and the 2nd and 4th the same but different from 1 and 3.  There are 2 downgrades but does it matter if the downgrades are for the 1st and 3rd radii or the 2nd and 4th?  Same square loop but all radii are different.  There are now 3 downgrades and does it matter which radii you consider correct?  Same square but all radii are the same except the first.  There is now only one downgrade for the first radius.  The point deduction would depend on the severity of the difference.  

    This question is the same as asking if the first point of a 4 point roll sets the rate for the remainder of the maneuver. If you allow the first element to set the standard for the remainder of the maneuver you are making an interpretation of the rules and that should not be done.  If the roll rate changes it's a downgrade.  For instance, on the point roll say the first roll is slow, the second faster, the third faster still and the roll out the same rate as the roll to inverted.  What's the downgrade for roll rate?  2 rolls had the same rate and 2 were different so there is 2 downgrades and one of the downgrades is for the rate of the first point.  The point deduction would depend on the severity of the difference.

    Same for the line length in a square loop.  The first length does not set the length for the others, it is only used as a comparison to the others.  I've been told not to say, "This is the way I would do it," but this is the way I would judge a square loop.  Every time the model passes in front of the judge there is a maneuver to be executed.  That indicates to me the square loop starts at center and draws half of the horizontal line.  If the model then flies a long line from center out, I'm suspicious that the vertical line might be short or the maneuver is going to be off center.  As the pull (push) is made watch the radius for comparison.  Now watch the vertical for lenght and comparison to other lengths to be flown and check the track for vertical.  As the next radius is drawn, compare to the first.  If different take a deduction depending on the severity of the defect.  Compare the next horizontal line lengtht to the lenght of the vertical and watch the track for any deviation.  If different assign another downgrade based on the severity of the defect.  Compare the 3rd radius to the other 2 and make your adjustment based on that radius comparison.  Now compare the last vertical to the other vertical and horizontal and note the track.  Make any downgrades necessary.  Compare the last radius to the others and note exit track.  Determine centering and make downgrades if necessary.  Actually centering could have been determined when the second vertical was started.  Watch the exit line and write your score. Wow!  No where in this did I say compare to the first radius or line length.

    My thougth process might go like this.  Model is parallel to flight line passing center and there is a line between the last maneuver so maneuver is now a 10.  First radius large and track is vetical, 10.  Note line lenght.  2nd radius smaller than first but not too much, 9.  Exit track is off about 10 degees, 8.5.  Horizontal line is considerably longer than vertical, 7.  Radius is about the same as 2nd radius, no downgrade, 7.  Vertical tracks vertical, no downgrade, 7.  Last radius is sharp, different from 1st, 2nd and 3rd radius, 6.  Track is parallel and exit line is on track, 6.  Write a 6 for the score.

    This was more than I meant to say, hope someone reads it.

    Don
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