Judging Landing & takoffs. (was Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????)

[Tony Stillman]

Larry:

I would agree that in virtually all of the contests I attend, the correct "winners" were picked by the judges.  However, I think we all agree that each one of US can work harder to be better judges, just like we can work to be better pilots.


Tony Stillman
Radio South
3702 N. Pace Blvd.
Pensacola, FL 32505
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Larry Diamond 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:15 AM
  Subject: Re: Judging Landing & takoffs. (was Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????)


  I started a thread about judging and the scoring system earlier this year. After about 300 to 400 e-mails later I paused and went to contest after contest (7 total) in Sportsman. I was skeptical about the system. However...

  Facts:

  1) 7 contest attended
  2) 5 In-District contests (Including the D4 Championship )
  3) 5 different states (MO, IN, TN, MI, and OH)
  4) 3 different NSRCA Districts (3, 4, and 5)
  5) Placed 1-1st, 2-2nd, 2-3rd, and 2-4th

  Original concern: How accurate was the judging to select the best pilot in the proper final standings.

  Worst Case Scenario - St Lois: Used club members to judge Sportsman.

  Initial concern after 1st Round: I was clearly not the best pilot, but only 2 points behind the leader after the 1st round. Another gentleman was clearly flying better but scored lower. Allot of discussion about where we thought we should be among the 4 Sportsman pilots through out the contest. Very open discussions indeed without debate.

  Outcome: Final scoring of the St Lois Contest placed us exactly as we openly discussed we should be among the 4 pilots competing.

  Conclusion: The system works.

  All the other contest IMHO placed me where I thought I should be. I also watched the other classes and for the most part held true.

  The only gotcha's were the contest decided by less than 10 points. Yep, allot more than I would have expected. But their flying was actually that close in the various classes.

  Food for thought,

  Larry
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: EHaury at aol.com 
    To: discussion at nsrca.org 
    Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:26 AM
    Subject: Re: Judging Landing & takoffs. (was Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????)


    Ladies and Gentlemen

    Our game requires competitors and judges. The competitors apply the requirements of the game (maneuvers - rules) and the judges score the quality of performance. Without both, there is no game. Some are better than others, both as competitors and judges. We generally don't demean the less skilled flyer but try to help him / her improve. A judge should receive the same.

    I recall (us old guys get to do this) a time when judges and the interpretation of the rules were unique to each contest. A CD would fill chairs anyway possible with both skilled and unskilled judges. This was true even at the Nats, soliciting the spectators at the last minute for anyone willing to take a stab at judging. Often scores were higher for familiar pilots, as they had "paid their dues."

    A few dedicated and skilled folks set about to fix that. The USPJA was formed and provided a pool of folks from which to draw for major meets. The pilots enjoyed meets where the judges were experienced and "usually" there were plenty of judges. While there were judges meetings to review the rules at major meets, the interpretation sometimes varied and the pilots could be unaware of expectations. Of course both used the same rulebook, but we all know how interpretation can vary. We criticized the folks that were willing to of take their time to judge our game until they were / are no more. We would have been better served to help them.

    The NSRCA Judge Certification program came into being. It was, and still is, the best thing ever done to improve pattern competition. (With the possible exception of the equal exposure to judges rule.) Of course a pilot would be foolish to compete without knowing the rules and is therefore an excellent candidate for judging. For a while we enjoyed a good mix of both flying and non-flying judges. Then the latter began to diminish, could it be that they simply got tired of working for the pattern competitor and getting griped at in return? 

    So we're now using pilot / judges for the most part. Guess what, we're still griping about scores and working harder! I've judged numerous meets over the years and within the various systems. I've not known one judge who I regarded as dishonest. Some are more skilled than others, some are more informed of the rules, and some didn't have clue. It really doesn't matter if they fly or not. Fortunately the cert program has minimized the clueless.

    No individual, no matter their experience, falls into the hallowed few category. Just what is the correct score for a given maneuver? I may observe downgrades that someone else doesn't and vice versa. It's interesting to line up a group of judges and score a maneuver (not a whole flight) and then discuss the individual scores and why. This exercise demonstrates why there needs to be as many judges on a line as possible. 

    We have a tendency to assign our view of a persons judging capability to the class they fly. Why is this? Is the FAI or Masters pilot smarter or better educated or more familiar with the rules than the Intermediate or Advanced pilot? I don't think so! Neither is the non-flying judge less qualified because they don't fly. The class a person flies only demonstrates their skill level as a pilot. I suspect there are folks who would excel at judging and might like to give it a shot if ask.

    This is getting too long, but I will state that I have worked with a good number of different pilot / judges at the Nats and elsewhere and find them, while not always enthused about having to judge, dedicated and competent in performing the job. (The only exception I may find in this is when I review my own flight scores :>)). Judging will always be a work in progress and let me assure you that it's significantly better than it once was. We all must work within the rules to ensure consistent interpretation and accept that we will not always agree.

    Earl
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