Team Trials

[Dean Pappas]

Hi Jim,
You're so right, on a bunch of points. The ARF reference was merely a targetting indicator: the same one used by the commercial magazines to find the market CG. Some of the ARFers are skilled builders, flyers, and trimmers with good reasons to assemble, rather than build. Many haven't (and here's the kicker) *yet* learned these skills. Along with our hubris, comes a fun obligation.

Your Control-Line Stunt simile is well chosen. Stunt is not large, these days, but it is healthy.

Good to hear from you,
Dean

P.S. I like your Li-Poly column just a month ago. Do the Li cells have a charge-voltage versus temp coefficient?
I found a good reference for the float and charge voltages of gel-cells versus temp, if you'd like to see it.


-----Original Message-----
From: JOddino [mailto:JOddino at socal.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:42 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Team Trials


Hi Dennis,
You make sport flyer sound like a bad thing or maybe I'm over reacting.  I
am a sport flyer if that means I fly to have fun.  I also assert that
everyone is a pattern flyer, because that is what we all do, we put our
planes through a series of maneuvers.  Some do it better than others and
some put it all together in a preprogrammed sequence.  When I fly I do a
preprogrammed pattern, sometimes a SCAT sequence and some times an AMA
masters sequence. If they let me fly my two meter GP PW Extra, the plane I
have fun with, in a pattern contest, I'd try that too.
Until a few years ago I did the FAI sequence.  In the old days I chased all
over the country to compete and had a lot of fun.  I met some great people
and miss not seeing them.
There will always be a few folks flying R/C pattern just like control line
but you will never get the masses like we did in the old days.  Pattern is
like jazz.  At one time 80% of the music played in the US was jazz.  You can
still find people playing it but it is not the mainstream.  Same with
pattern.
You can keep trying to expand pattern flying but don't feel bad if you don't
capture the same percentage we had in the old days.  Just enjoy what you
have and quit wishing for something else.
By the way there isn't more than a handful of people if that many who can
build an airframe as good as the Composite-ARF (formerly FiberClassics) I
just bought.  If they or anyone else built a pattern plane that good they
would dominate the event just like they did the TOC.  I like to build now
and then but if I can buy a better airplane for less money I'd be smart to
buy my competition plane and build my sport plane.
Anyway I was just tickling the dragon trying to get a reaction so it is okay
if you attack my observations.  I know that Dean wasn't looking down on
people who flew ARFs.
Jim

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Cone" <cone.man at verizon.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Team Trials


> Don't take this as a personal attack but you reflect the vary reason we
have
> the indifference to pattern that most sport fliers have. It has become the
> trend today that if it is not an ARF then it is too much trouble to build.
I
> for one will never have anyone other than myself build my planes and will
> never own an ARF. We need to make sure we never rescind from the basics of
> building. This is where the understanding of building,  and the
> understanding of how an airplane works come from. I really don't care what
> type of engine a person uses and I try to emphasize the importance of
> building from at least a kit to my students so they will understand these
> basics. While it is valuable to provide an ARF type kit to the folks who
do
> not understand how to build or do not want to, it is also important to
make
> sure we do not dilute this sport with too many ARF'S. We are a group of
> precision builders and fliers and the level of competition we enjoy
reflects
> this. Jim, you sound like a sport flier. Perhaps I am off in LA-LA land
but
> this is how I see it.
>
> Dennis Cone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On
> Behalf Of JOddino
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:03 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: Team Trials
>
> Hi Dean,
> You triggered me with that, "aim it at the ARFer...".  I'm not sure how to
> react now that I am an ARFer.  Even worse I'm an ARFer with gas engines.
I
> can tell you a couple of things, I am more enthused now than I have been
for
> a long time.  I'm even going to a SCAT contest this weekend.  I heard they
> have 40 pre-registered.  I see a trend that allows many folks to become
top
> rate pilots at a relatively low cost of time and money.  In fact it is so
> low an investment ($400 for the plane and $550 for the engine) I am
> comfortable flying it at Sepulveda Basin.  The DA50 is great.  No messing
> with the needles after you find the settings, no fooling with tuned pipes,
> headers, bearings, glow plugs and drivers, starters, etc.  No worrying
about
> weight or noise.  All you do is charge the batteries and fill the tank and
> fly.  And the plane is easy to fly with its excess thrust and higher drag.
> I'm so happy I took the next step and bought a Composite-ARF 2.6M Extra
and
> a DA100.  You couldn't come close to building a nicer airframe for $1240,
> it's even painted in the mold.  I've always wanted a perfectly straight
> airframe and this is as close as I will ever have.
> I'd be inclined to somehow embrace the ARFs and ARFers because they are
here
> to stay.  You will have a difficult time to get people to put in the
effort
> to compete in pattern unless they can buy an ARF and look good flying it
in
> very little time.
> Maybe I'm just getting lazy or realize I don't have that much time left
but
> I don't see me ever building another pattern plane unless it is an ARF.
> My thought of the day.
> Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Team Trials
>
>
> Hi George,
> That was a real part of my non-argument with Bob H. (remember he's one of
> us)
> An Academy is supposed to be a place dedicated to education and
excellence.
> Wanna fix it? Then we need to educate.
> Write a good technical article, submit it to any mag, aim it at the ARFer,
> and uplift him just one little bit.
> Teach him a tiny little something at the field (without his figuring out
> that he's being
> dragged out of the great big "lowest common denominator".
> The only difference between what I just said, and the world-view that I
(and
> many of you)
> held up until a short while ago, is that the AMA and the house organ isn't
> doing it for us.
> They won't hinder us either! Any magazine will gratefully accept good
> technical stuff,
> especially if it is written so as to connect with the majority.
> You know, there are less widely read magazines that eschew the lowest
common
> denominator!
> I'll stop there before being accused of a sales pitch.
>
> Less bewildered and more resolved,
> Dean
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GeorgeF. [mailto:av8tor at flash.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:13 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: Team Trials
>
>
>
> >Hi Tony, Hi All,
> >
> >Tony, when you said that, "AMA didn't even think it important enough to
> >cover in Model Aviation...", something inside me twinged. So I called
dear
> >friend Bob Hunt(the editor at MA) and asked him if there was to be even
> >cursory coverage. Realize that the man I'm talking to is a World Champion
> >in Control-Line Aerobatics, and still a competitor ... His voice saddened
> >and he told me that the policy at MA is that no team trials are covered,
> >lest they all have to be covered. Every time something about competition
> >is covered, droves of readers write in to complain. After every December
> >issue (the NATs coverage issue) they are barraged with complaints about
> >the the waste of magazine space. World championships might get coverage,
> >if they happen in the U.S.! The mediocre have censored coverage of
> >excellence. Don't hassle Bob, he is one of us!
> >
> >O.K., for homework, everyone go (re)read Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".
> >
> >Bewildered,
> >     Dean Pappas
>
>
> Isn't part of the AMA's mission to promote all forms of Model
> Aviation?  Isn't competition part of Model Aviation?   Seems like by not
> covering competition you're not promoting and advancement of model
> aviation.  In this case everyone looses from the hard core competitor to
> the sport flier and the park fliers.....
>
> George
>
>
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