Judging behaviour

Fri Jan 24 05:30:51 AKST 2003

Peter:

My background as a three-time USA Team Manager (now about to be four, as I
will be TM for the USA this year in Poland...) and CD for the 1999 World
Champs, I have set through several Judge training sessions at the WC.

To say I was disipointed would be a major understatement!  Many of the
judges only judge at one or two contests over a two year period!  Beside the
lack of experiance, the questions that they asked during the training
session were those that you would expect to hear from a Sportsman pilot who
has never attended a contest before!  A re-occuring issue was that most
thought that if you went out of the box, even just barely, it was a zero!
Some didn't understand that the takeoff and landings were scored a zero or
10.  It was very sad.

I can remember going back from a meeting to share what I had heard with the
pilots and during the trip my assistant team manager and I decided it was
best to not go into these details with them.  How do you prepair pilots for
flying in front of judges who don't even know the basics of the job?  I just
told them to fly their best, just as they had done at the team trials.
There were some specific items addressed at the meeting such as the center
of a spin, but overall I was suprised by the lack of experience and very
basic questions presented by the judges to the Cheif Judge (which was Ron
Chidgey).

Ron spoke about distance, but it was very obvious that this was a "fine
point" to these judges, and Ron had much bigger "fish to fry" making sure
that the got judging basics down.

Now, with all that said, I don't have a lot of confidance in the overall
quality of judges used at at WC.  I would much rather have the group of
judges we use every year at our Nats for Masters and FAI finals!

This gets us back to the distance issue.  It is touchy, but the rules for
FAI are pretty black and white.  If the model is past the 175 meter point,
it should be downgraded.  Figuring that distance may be difficult, but that
is the rule.  The further out you go from there, additional points should be
taken off.  If a pilot elects to fly at that distance, that's fine, but
there should be no question that he should have points deducted on each
manuever that he is past the 175 meter line.

It is not easy to fly this kind of line, especially in wind, but many can do
it and make it look wonderful.  It is easy to judge because you can see the
model so well, even in the corners due to the close-in location.  The people
that can do this should score better than those who can't, and the rule is
there to back this up.

Local events should be inforcing this as well, after all, the contestants do
the judging and they need to follow the rule.  In many local events everyone
is flying out.  That's fine, but be aware that the distance issue is always
there, and should be accounted for.

If you start using the throttle, you will find that you too can learn to fly
in.  It takes practice, but it can be done.  I am still learning, and I'm
not the best pilot out there, that's for sure!  However, during the NATS
last year, I was first up on my line.  A fellow FAI pilot and friend Raiko
Potter took off first on the other line.  He finished the first center
maneuver before I was allowed to start
my airplane, and I finished the flight and landed before he did!  I was
flying at 140 to 150 meters, and Raiko always flies farther out.  I didn't
mind, because I was not worried about a mid-air!

Just my $0.02 worth....

Tony Stillman
Radio South, Inc.
3702 N. Pace Blvd.
Pensacola, Fl 32505
www.radiosouthrc.com
800-962-7802
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Pennisi" <pentagon.systems at bigpond.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Judging behaviour

> I regard myself as an experienced flyer competing in F3A (note: I have
> not said that I am a competitive one at that). The judge from the
> experience I encountered remarked that my flight was too far out.
>
> I flew at a distance I felt was appropriate for the conditions at the
> time (that was my perception).
>
> Flying too deep in the box is a touchy subject at the best of time. Some
> pilots naturally fly deep and fast while others may fly close and slow.
> This has now becomes a subject of "style".
>
> I know the rule book says 150m, but I also think there is something
> about the model must be flown at a distance were it is clearly visible.
>
> I was fortunate enough to go to the World Champs in Ireland in 2001 and
> some of the worlds best were flying at a distance well beyond the 150m
> mark, but I had no problems seeing their models and I guess the judges
> did not have a problem with it either as they scored very well.
>
> My point is some elements of our flying are subjective, unless a
> particular flyer is flying at 250m, then everyone is aware and he/she
> should be penalised for that.
>
> Forcing your opinion upon other judges because you felt a particular
> person was flying say at 175-180m I don't think is correct. If you have
> problems with it make a comment at the bottom of the score sheet if you
> feel you have to. Just don't try to persuade your fellow judges to think
> the same way as they may be seeing something different.
>
> P.S Gray, My spell checker tells me that I have spelt behaviour
> correctly, but then it is Australian.
>
>
>
>
> Peter Pennisi
> Pentagon Systems
> P.O Box 4280
> Eight Mile Plains
> QLD 4113
> Australia
> Phone:    61+0738414234
> Fax:        61+0733419203
> Mobile:   0408007206
> Email: pentagon.systems at bigpond.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
> On Behalf Of Ed Miller
> Sent: Friday, 24 January 2003 07:45 AM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: Judging behaviour
>
> I think I understand where Peter is coming from on this. In my District
> we
> have gone to contestant judging in every contest except 2 that I am
> aware
> of. What I have witnessed happening is "lobbying in the pits" by
> contestants
> to other contestants that will be judging competitors in their class.
> "So
> and so's plane doesn't spin right" or "looks funny rolling", "he always
> cheats the spin entry and gets away with it" are comments I've
> personally
> heard. Personally, although offended by these remarks, I've always
> judged
> everyone to the best of my ability and within the rules as I know them.
> I
> personally have no problem being critiqued by a group of judges after a
> flight, in fact I welcome it. However this "lobbying in the pits" taints
> the
> contest experience. The "winning is the only thing" mentality should be
> left
> at  the battlefield.
> Ed M.
> --- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Pennisi" <pentagon.systems at bigpond.com>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:42 AM
> Subject: RE: Judging behaviour
>
>
> >
> > I have no problems with post flight comments if the pilot asks,
> > especially if he is new to pattern and wants to improve his/her
> flying.
> >
> > Someone who may be struggling with a four point roll for example may
> ask
> > for some advice if the person who is judging is a more experienced
> > flyer.
> >
> > I guess what I am trying to say is if a pilot is struggling with some
> > elements of his flight and concedes that he has, at the end of his
> > flight by asking for help then I have no problem with giving some
> > feedback.
> >
> > I feel my situation was a little different. I didn't ask. I guess he
> > could have expressed his view to the other judges if I wasn't there
> but
> > I can't stop that.
> >
> > The point I tried to make in my original post was judges and pilots
> need
> > to maintain some level of ethical behaviour at comps to say "keep the
> > peace"
> >
> > I am the first to admit that criticism and comments are needed to make
> > you
> > A better pilot, however there is a time and place for that and that
> > isn't on the flight line of a national championship.
> >
> > The old saying that "Money is the root of all evil" it is similar to
> say
> > that "judging is the root of most arguments at pattern competitions"
> > unfortunately, I don't think I am on my own here when I say this. By
> > keeping opinions to ourselves certainly goes a long way to keep
> harmony.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Pennisi
> > Pentagon Systems
> > P.O Box 4280
> > Eight Mile Plains
> > QLD 4113
> > Australia
> > Phone:    61+0738414234
> > Fax:        61+0733419203
> > Mobile:   0408007206
> > Email: pentagon.systems at bigpond.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
> > On Behalf Of Dave & Sue Funk
> > Sent: Thursday, 23 January 2003 22:28 PM
> > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > Subject: Re: Judging behaviour
> >
> > I agree with Rick completely. Comments from the judges is welcome.
> (POST
> > FLIGHT)
> >
> >  Dave
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rick Wallace" <rickwallace45 at hotmail.com>
> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: Judging behaviour
> >
> >
> > > I'm a fairly new pattern pilot, and welcome the comments of more
> > experienced
> > > pilots anytime I can get 'em, especially since they're  pilots too,
> > and
> > are
> > > virtually always more experienced than I am.
> > >
> > > I look at immediate post-flight conversation w/ the judges as a way
> to
> > > improve my flying. I'll routinely turn to the judges after I land
> and
> > ask
> > > them for their comments.
> > > Sometimes they'll let me know that they'd rather not comment, and I
> > thank
> > > them and leave. Often, though, one or more will be willing to give
> his
> > > impressions and perceptions of the flight - this can be as valuable
> as
> > any
> > > other input.
> > >
> > > Of course, if the next guy already has his engine running, and is
> > waiting
> > to
> > > step into the box then there's no discussion- -it's his flight line.
> > > Otherwise, why not get the mini-critique?
> > >
> > > By the same token when I judge, when a competitor *asks* for
> feedback
> > (and
> > > only then) after his flight, I'll give it (usually deferring to the
> > more
> > > senior judge if there is one) when there's time before the next
> > pilot's
> > up.
> > > I trust the other judge not to be influenced (not to be swayed in
> his
> > > judgiung the rest of the round) by my comments, as I try not to be
> > swayed
> > by
> > > his comments.
> > >
> > > We pattern guys don't fly together enough as it is, and should take
> > max
> > > advantage of the chances to help each other and to be helped.
> > >
> > > My $.02 -
> > > Rick
> > >
> > > >
> > > >I recently attended a competition in which the conduct of a
> > particular
> > > >judge
> > > >left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. As I turned towards the
> > judges
> > > >after
> > > >completing my flight this particular person (experienced F3A judge)
> > made
> > a
> > > >number of comments about my flight being flown too far out and that
> > he
> > > >docked several points per manoeuvre. These comments were made in
> the
> > > >presence of the other two judges.
> > > >
> > > >I am not going to argue that I was or wasn't. The concern I had
> with
> > this
> > > >behaviour was he could have influenced the other judges to think
> the
> > same
> > > >as
> > > >they had less experience. This type of conduct should not be
> allowed
> > to
> > > >happen. Judges should be able to judge a flight based on their own
> > > >perception and interpretation of rules etc. If this particular
> person
> > > >thought that I should be docked 2 points per manoeuvre then that
> > should
> > be
> > > >his opinion only.
> > > >
> > > >The issue here is that most of us on this list judge and fly
> > aerobatics.
> > > >Everyone deserves to be judged fairly and unbiased by people who
> have
> > their
> > > >own perception on how a flight should look and should be flown. Why
> > have
> > 3
> > > >or 5 judges?
> > > >
> > > >If you looked at this incident from another angle some of my
> > competitors
> > > >may
> > > >say that I was being coached by a judge which could raise another
> set
> > of
> > > >problems.
> > > >
> > > >All in all, the fact he said anything was wrong.
> > > >
> > > >Just my thoughts
> > > >
> > > >Peter
> > > >
> > > >
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