Judging behaviour

Thu Jan 23 13:27:50 AKST 2003

I regard myself as an experienced flyer competing in F3A (note: I have
not said that I am a competitive one at that). The judge from the
experience I encountered remarked that my flight was too far out.

I flew at a distance I felt was appropriate for the conditions at the
time (that was my perception).

Flying too deep in the box is a touchy subject at the best of time. Some
pilots naturally fly deep and fast while others may fly close and slow.
This has now becomes a subject of "style". 

I know the rule book says 150m, but I also think there is something
about the model must be flown at a distance were it is clearly visible.

I was fortunate enough to go to the World Champs in Ireland in 2001 and
some of the worlds best were flying at a distance well beyond the 150m
mark, but I had no problems seeing their models and I guess the judges
did not have a problem with it either as they scored very well.

My point is some elements of our flying are subjective, unless a
particular flyer is flying at 250m, then everyone is aware and he/she
should be penalised for that.

Forcing your opinion upon other judges because you felt a particular
person was flying say at 175-180m I don't think is correct. If you have
problems with it make a comment at the bottom of the score sheet if you
feel you have to. Just don't try to persuade your fellow judges to think
the same way as they may be seeing something different. 

P.S Gray, My spell checker tells me that I have spelt behaviour
correctly, but then it is Australian.

Peter Pennisi
Pentagon Systems
P.O Box 4280
Eight Mile Plains
QLD 4113
Australia
Phone:    61+0738414234
Fax:        61+0733419203
Mobile:   0408007206
Email: pentagon.systems at bigpond.com

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Ed Miller
Sent: Friday, 24 January 2003 07:45 AM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Judging behaviour

I think I understand where Peter is coming from on this. In my District
we
have gone to contestant judging in every contest except 2 that I am
aware
of. What I have witnessed happening is "lobbying in the pits" by
contestants
to other contestants that will be judging competitors in their class.
"So
and so's plane doesn't spin right" or "looks funny rolling", "he always
cheats the spin entry and gets away with it" are comments I've
personally
heard. Personally, although offended by these remarks, I've always
judged
everyone to the best of my ability and within the rules as I know them.
I
personally have no problem being critiqued by a group of judges after a
flight, in fact I welcome it. However this "lobbying in the pits" taints
the
contest experience. The "winning is the only thing" mentality should be
left
at  the battlefield.
Ed M.
--- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Pennisi" <pentagon.systems at bigpond.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: Judging behaviour

>
> I have no problems with post flight comments if the pilot asks,
> especially if he is new to pattern and wants to improve his/her
flying.
>
> Someone who may be struggling with a four point roll for example may
ask
> for some advice if the person who is judging is a more experienced
> flyer.
>
> I guess what I am trying to say is if a pilot is struggling with some
> elements of his flight and concedes that he has, at the end of his
> flight by asking for help then I have no problem with giving some
> feedback.
>
> I feel my situation was a little different. I didn't ask. I guess he
> could have expressed his view to the other judges if I wasn't there
but
> I can't stop that.
>
> The point I tried to make in my original post was judges and pilots
need
> to maintain some level of ethical behaviour at comps to say "keep the
> peace"
>
> I am the first to admit that criticism and comments are needed to make
> you
> A better pilot, however there is a time and place for that and that
> isn't on the flight line of a national championship.
>
> The old saying that "Money is the root of all evil" it is similar to
say
> that "judging is the root of most arguments at pattern competitions"
> unfortunately, I don't think I am on my own here when I say this. By
> keeping opinions to ourselves certainly goes a long way to keep
harmony.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter Pennisi
> Pentagon Systems
> P.O Box 4280
> Eight Mile Plains
> QLD 4113
> Australia
> Phone:    61+0738414234
> Fax:        61+0733419203
> Mobile:   0408007206
> Email: pentagon.systems at bigpond.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
> On Behalf Of Dave & Sue Funk
> Sent: Thursday, 23 January 2003 22:28 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: Judging behaviour
>
> I agree with Rick completely. Comments from the judges is welcome.
(POST
> FLIGHT)
>
>  Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Wallace" <rickwallace45 at hotmail.com>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Judging behaviour
>
>
> > I'm a fairly new pattern pilot, and welcome the comments of more
> experienced
> > pilots anytime I can get 'em, especially since they're  pilots too,
> and
> are
> > virtually always more experienced than I am.
> >
> > I look at immediate post-flight conversation w/ the judges as a way
to
> > improve my flying. I'll routinely turn to the judges after I land
and
> ask
> > them for their comments.
> > Sometimes they'll let me know that they'd rather not comment, and I
> thank
> > them and leave. Often, though, one or more will be willing to give
his
> > impressions and perceptions of the flight - this can be as valuable
as
> any
> > other input.
> >
> > Of course, if the next guy already has his engine running, and is
> waiting
> to
> > step into the box then there's no discussion- -it's his flight line.
> > Otherwise, why not get the mini-critique?
> >
> > By the same token when I judge, when a competitor *asks* for
feedback
> (and
> > only then) after his flight, I'll give it (usually deferring to the
> more
> > senior judge if there is one) when there's time before the next
> pilot's
> up.
> > I trust the other judge not to be influenced (not to be swayed in
his
> > judgiung the rest of the round) by my comments, as I try not to be
> swayed
> by
> > his comments.
> >
> > We pattern guys don't fly together enough as it is, and should take
> max
> > advantage of the chances to help each other and to be helped.
> >
> > My $.02 -
> > Rick
> >
> > >
> > >I recently attended a competition in which the conduct of a
> particular
> > >judge
> > >left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. As I turned towards the
> judges
> > >after
> > >completing my flight this particular person (experienced F3A judge)
> made
> a
> > >number of comments about my flight being flown too far out and that
> he
> > >docked several points per manoeuvre. These comments were made in
the
> > >presence of the other two judges.
> > >
> > >I am not going to argue that I was or wasn't. The concern I had
with
> this
> > >behaviour was he could have influenced the other judges to think
the
> same
> > >as
> > >they had less experience. This type of conduct should not be
allowed
> to
> > >happen. Judges should be able to judge a flight based on their own
> > >perception and interpretation of rules etc. If this particular
person
> > >thought that I should be docked 2 points per manoeuvre then that
> should
> be
> > >his opinion only.
> > >
> > >The issue here is that most of us on this list judge and fly
> aerobatics.
> > >Everyone deserves to be judged fairly and unbiased by people who
have
> their
> > >own perception on how a flight should look and should be flown. Why
> have
> 3
> > >or 5 judges?
> > >
> > >If you looked at this incident from another angle some of my
> competitors
> > >may
> > >say that I was being coached by a judge which could raise another
set
> of
> > >problems.
> > >
> > >All in all, the fact he said anything was wrong.
> > >
> > >Just my thoughts
> > >
> > >Peter
> > >
> > >
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