K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
Tomanek, Wojtek
tomanekw at saic-abingdon.com
Fri Nov 1 05:04:52 AKST 2002
Jim
Would like to second this, there have been more than few very competitive
advanced, masters, and even few FAI pilots flying the Super 8, 9C or the JR
8 (not sure of the exact name) at the NATs. The best indication however is
when you ask a pilot with a 9 ZAP or 10X of how they use their radios and
programming. And the answer is very surprising. Not always, but generally
they do not use any special conditions (although they may be programmed),
but they use the electronic trims, differentials, end point adjustments,
expo, dual and triple rates and similar. The best answer, to that question
by a pilot with 9ZAP (actually he had two, one spare) was that he used a
"flight condition" for takoffs - after further inquiry of the actual setup
the same could have been achieved by a single dual rate switch. I have
never heard any one say that going form a lower priced radio to the top of
the line made them a better pilot. The current $400-500 radios have more
that what is really needed for a current design pattern planes. The
advantage that I see between say 9C and 9ZAP is the fact that the 9ZAP has
ball bearings on the sticks, but is it worth $500 or will it make you better
pilot - NOT. Also, If one remembers correctly top honors in both FAI and
Masters at NATs couple years back went to pilots with Focii - a very
reasonably priced ARFs. Also, two years ago a pilot won the Intermediate
class at the NATs with a 60 sized Boxer (that has seen better days) flying
almost warp speed but the geometry and the presentation was better than
anyone else's.
What is expensive in pattern is fuel if you burn enough of it.
Wojtek
-----Original Message-----
From: Woodward James R Civ 416 FLTS/TPS
[SMTP:James.Woodward2 at edwards.af.mil]
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:17 PM
To: 'discussion at nsrca.org'
Subject: RE: K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
George, - as for the last time a $400 radio won a well attended
Master or
FAI event - you got me there - BUT, I did win the Advanced Nationals
this
year with a $350 radio FM Fut 9C, and have 1 Masters class victory
in norcal
where there was about 10 in the class, post the nats. Each event
flying Ken
Blackwell's "Phase One" design (.... the "chipmonk" looking pattern
plane).
Actually, most local type of guys relate well to this design and say
things
like, "I had a Chipmonk once that flew great." They see a balsa
type of
pattern plane and actually believe that they could build one (versus
a
fiberglass plane).
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: GeorgeF. [mailto:av8tor at flash.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 1:26 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: RE: K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
The second highest reason people don't fly pattern is as follows:
"Too
expensive to be "competitive"". That is not what I'm saying, that
was
what the people who aren't flying pattern are saying so I can only
assume
they know the reason they don't fly.
Regarding the comments about using radios under $400 and planes in
the $600
range. YES you can fly pattern with the lessor expensive radios and
planes
but you will not be as competitive. If you don't believe me then
look at
Chip, and all the other top FAI and Masters pilots, I don't see them
flying
$400 radios or $600 planes. If lessor radios and planes are
competitive
then why are the top pilots using them?????
Now yes you can do will in the lower classes with lessor radios and
planes
however that is NOT what the newcomer sees. The newcomer to the
hobby
sees $4000+ planes being flown and is "Perception" is that that is
what it
takes to be competitive regardless of class. Its more a matter of
perception, after all when was the last time a $400.00 radio won a
well
attended Masters or FAI event????
George
"Please see the entire picture before pattern totally disappears"
At 11:02 AM 10/31/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>I don't agree with the "sky-high-cost" to be competitive equipment
argument
>- in regards to why people don't want to join or fly pattern.
There are an
>assortment of radios under $400 that are entirely capable of
pattern needs.
>There are more engine and exhaust choices now than ever. There are
used
>planes or new ARF/ARC planes available in the $600-$800 range
(Piedmont
>Models and Zimpro Marketing - both American companies).
Sky-high-costs
>compared to what? What other venue of R/C flying can you get into
and be
>competitve for less money than a pattern plane? Jets? Scale?
Sailplanes?
>Q-500? IMAC?
>I think there are plenty of people who are willing to practice,
compete,
and
>spend hard-earned money to compete and/or be competitive. The real
question
>is why doesn't pattern get a bigger piece of the new R/C enthusiast
pie?
>Precisely what Bob's survey's questions are asking. Somewhere in
this is
>that, "pattern in hard." Being a competitive flyer within each of
our
>ability groups has more to do with your ability and practicing,
than
>airplane selection.
>
>I don't know why, but there have been some very recent times when I
practice
>(actually flying) at the club field on the weekend, I can HEAR in
the
>background people talking about why they don't fly pattern. My
planes and
>the fact that they see the dedication to practice, really bother
some of
the
>local guys in that without asking, they will approach and talk
about why
>they don't have one, the time they don't have to PRACTICE, and the
cost of
>equipment. A couple of them are lined up to tell me why they don't
fly
>pattern as soon as I land. I'm a nice guy. However, I didn't
approach
each
>person and ask them to come over and complain to me. They feel
quite free
>to express their ill-will or gudge. I offer some of them to try
the plane,
>and they wouldn't touch it with a ten foot poll. I don't wait for
someone
>to land the Hanger 9 Pizazz .40 that buzzed my head three times,
and go
over
>and tell them all the reasons I don't fly like that. You see, many
people
>will approach and openly discuss why they don't participate - more
times
>than I'd like. With these guys, there is NOTHING I can say for
which they
>don't already have a prepared answer. I just listen and hope the
punishment
>is quickly over. If I offer them to fly the plane, and they don't
want to,
>I really can't do anything else to be congenial.
>
>The main "club" reasons are:
>1. I don't have the time to practice to fly like that
>2. I like to fly different kind of planes (and not be pinned down
to one
>plane)
>3. I don't have the money for that.
>
>Almost all the time, the list starts with, "I don't have the time
to
>practice." Some of them have nice equipment and expensive engines
in their
>other planes, too. A few times, someone says, "boy, if I had the
money I'd
>get one of those in a heart beat."
>
>I do believe that our club is starting to be more receptive to the
idea of
>more members flying areiobatics. There are a couple long standing
members
>that fly either pattern, or wish to start an IMAC contest at the
club (club
>already supports a pattern contest). Also, there are about 3 new
club
>members (like myself), who fly aerobatics. Our club is
predominately a R/C
>flyer trainnig ground. Club instruction has been the primary
concern for a
>long while. Just recently, we passed a trial by-law in which
"training"
>could only occur from the beginning of each hour to the 1/2 of each
hour.
>This was a great event, and now, you can plan on 1/2 hour of each
hour as
>time for which "training" will not occur.
>Jim
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: GeorgeF. [mailto:av8tor at flash.net]
>Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:25 AM
>To: discussion at nsrca.org
>Subject: RE: K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
>
>
>Got it and thanks.
>
>Being that I was HEAVY into pattern many years ago and then quit
the
>results of that survey is not surprising at all. Local support
and
>interest just wasn't there.
>
>After moving to Florida I had thoughts of re-entering the sport and
again
>find that there is just no local support or interest not to mention
the sky
>high price of todays equipment to be competitive. While for me
money is
>not much of a concern however I feel it is the high cost of being
>competitive which actually leads to the issue of "no local support
and
>interest". As shown by the survey the #2 reason was equipment
costs.
>
>After seeing some of the rules that some members what changed in
the name
>of "allowing more people to fly pattern" these are simply excuses
to get a
>rule change passed. In the past nearly every rule change (ie:
engine size
>& aircraft size) which was meant to increase pattern involvement
has
>not. In fact the long-term effect of those rule changes did
nothing but
>increase the cost of being competitive.
>
>George
>NSRCA member since 1990
>
>At 12:07 PM 10/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >George
> >
> >rcuniverse.com go to 3D aerobatics and Pattern then search
for
surveys
> >
> >or go to one of Bob's previous post's and click on the URL
> >
> > >From: "GeorgeF."
> > >Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >Subject: RE: K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
> > >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:17:48 -0500
> > >
> > >Where is this survey found? URL?
> > >George
> > >
> > >
> > >At 08:41 AM 10/31/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> > >> - yah, it tells me that the survey is not gear towards
pattern
> > >>flyers or those interested in pattern. The "jist" of it
appears to
> > >>be towards those who have not competed, or did and quit, and
why.
> > >>
> > >>Jim
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Buddy Brammer [mailto:buddybrammer35 at hotmail.com]
> > >>Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:41 AM
> > >>To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >>Subject: Re: K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
> > >>
> > >>For those intrested Bob's survey at RCU has already had more
> > >>responses than the rules change survey and it has only been
running
> > >>a few days! Does that tell you something?
> > >>
> > >>Buddy
> > >>
> > >> >From: "Buddy Brammer"
> > >> >Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >> >To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > >> >Subject: K-Factor Pattern an invisible group
> > >> >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:27:23 -0600
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----------
> > >>Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband.
> > >>Click Here
>
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