[NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries

Thu Jan 27 09:31:55 AKST 2022

Lyle

Great idea. Let me know when you get it perfected!

I still fly contras. The main reson is the "cool" factor. You know "It;s
better to look good than to be good".

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:26 AM Velkydilnar <velkydilnar at comcast.net>
wrote:

> On the speed discussion.
> Xareltoo with YS200 and 22x11 prop, the prop has such braking power that
>  Alex has to add power to not stall the model in down lines maneuvers. From
> seeing the top European pilots, it’s about consistency. CPLR is not really
> slow. But he is always the same.
>
> I think for electric, we can play with wide props and use the governor
> function in ESC.  I think that is Sean’s way to help with constant speed.
>
> Sean, am I correct?
>
> On Jan 27, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Lyle Laughery via NSRCA-dist8 <
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> 
> I’m thing someone will design a motor and prop so the contra only works on
> down lines ,then kicks out on horizontal and 45’s .Like changing gears from
> first to third on a car trans.
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:04 AM Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> Igor,
>>
>> Interesting that you bring up flying slower. There has been a major shift
>> in flying styles of the top guys over the last few years and it all
>> revolves around speed.
>>
>> It wasn't that long ago, everyone wanted to fly slow and close in. John
>> Bentley has been to several Worlds and can attest that the top 20 or so
>> percent of the field all fly at a top level and it has become very
>> difficult to judge. The big thing now is ultra consistent speed. In fact
>> consistent speed has now become a major judging criteria to help
>> distinguish the very top pilots.
>>
>> The problem is, it is very difficult to fly slow and have consistent
>> speed. The limiting factor is "downlines''. You can only control downline
>> speed so much. So what the big boys are now doing is watching their
>> downline speed and matching that to their horizontal and 45 speed. The
>> outcome has become "faster" and a bit further out flying styles.
>>
>> One other issue is contras. Andrew was flying contras maybe three or four
>> years ago. He told me he stopped flying them because he couldn't get
>> consistent speed. I was flying a contra at the time and didn't really pick
>> up on what he was talking about for several months. I started to really
>> concentrate on speed and realized I couldn't fly uplines at the same speed
>> as 45's and horizontals. Flying a contra is kind of like driving a tractor.
>> A tractor might go 3 miles per hour at 1/3 throttle but only 5 miles per
>> hour at full throttle. You can go upline with a contra with just a couple
>> of clicks of power, but if you go full throttle it wont go much
>> faster....it just burns up batteries.
>>
>> The bottom line is we are going to burn more juice to get consistent
>> flying speed, but that's the price we have to pay.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:26 AM Karl Watts <
>> Karl.Watts at saintalphonsus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone want some never used Roaring Top, 5C, 5800 mAh, 35C lipo
>>> batteries with EC5 connectors?  Purchased the 5800 by mistake, wanted the
>>> 5000.  I have 6 of them.  Retail right now for $72 each.  I do not remember
>>> how much I paid for them, not that much, they were on sale.  Will give you
>>> a really good deal - $45/each.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Karl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Sean Mersh <mershs at hotmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 8:42 PM
>>> *To:* Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com>; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>; Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>; Karl
>>> Watts <Karl.Watts at saintalphonsus.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, there is a difference:
>>>
>>> 35C's are heavier than 25C's, because the only way (at present) to
>>> increase C rating is to add more metal to the packs, increasing weight.
>>>
>>> BUT: in pattern, unlike in 3D or helicopter flying, we don't need more
>>> than 25C because we don't pull short bursts of high power, as long as we
>>> use good throttle management with SLOW throttle stick movements.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Outlook
>>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=04%7C01%7CKarl.Watts%40saintalphonsus.org%7C84b4707ce20b46cd42bd08d9e146feb0%7C0d91e6194a2c4c80b9598fdf518e52e8%7C0%7C0%7C637788517330336456%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TCf6Evm%2B7ggiWTbInv%2F5eOH64gt6gOCpaXFUetI2pg4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of
>>> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 11:00 AM
>>> *To:* Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com>; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>; Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, so, does it make a difference if I get the 35 C 10s 5000s versus the
>>> 25 C 10s 5000s?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> *On Behalf Of
>>> *Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 11:18 AM
>>> *To:* Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> *Subject:* [External] Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CYBERSECURITY WARNING**:* This email is sent from outside of Trinity
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> Jim, Art,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My pleasure. It's interesting to note that Andrew and AC will not be
>>> able to utilize the longer flight times of 12's at the NATS and the Worlds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As an aside, there was an interesting (or contentious) thread on RC
>>> Universe a while back. The guy wanted to get in a fight with me, but I
>>> wanted nothing to do with it. He was off on some tangent that a 12's system
>>> will not result in lower heat in the batteries. The long and short of it
>>> is, a 12's system is a higher voltage system than 10's, which results in it
>>> (12's) being a "more efficient" system. I am no electronic genius by any
>>> means, but I do know that higher voltage systems are noted as being more
>>> efficient. For our purposes, an efficient system simply has a lower current
>>> draw, which results in lower heat being generated within the system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John can correct me if I am wrong, but it's pretty much a question of
>>> how we generate the "Watts" in our system. In a 10's system, to generate X
>>> amount of watts of power, we need to pull X amount of Amps from the
>>> batteries. In a 12's system we now trade volts for amps. Simply said, to
>>> now generate the same amount of watts as our 10's system, we now are able
>>> to pull less amps from the batteries. (40 volts times 70 amp draw equals
>>> 2,800 watts) Conversely in a 12's system, (2,800 watts divided by 48 volts
>>> equals a 58 amp draw). Amps times Volts = Watts
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The bottom line is the roughly 12 amp less draw is really pretty
>>> irrelevant for our motor and ESC. Yes they might run a bit cooler, but they
>>> are built to take it. The real bonus is with less amp draw from our
>>> batteries they are simply going to run cooler. As we all know, heat is the
>>> death knell to our batteries. Less current draw equates to less heat, which
>>> equates to longer battery life. A high current draw from our batteries
>>> raises the internal resistance. The next time we fly, our batteries heat
>>> goes up due to the higher internal resistance, which now raises the
>>> internal resistance even further, which results in more heat being
>>> generated....the result a big puffy, shot battery.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is also a side note that I am not versed enough to discuss. It's
>>> my understanding that a higher voltage system may have less internal
>>> resistance of its components due to the lower current (amp) draw. Lower
>>> internal resistance equates to lower heat generation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's all about the heat baby! Keep in mind, your mileage may vary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:31 AM Jim Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Scott, I’m no expert but I don’t think I’d do that, epically if
>>> batteries are not purchased together and USED together. If one of the four
>>> gets week it will drop voltage faster then the other three and increase amp
>>> draw. If one is not paying close attention to the battery condition
>>> excessive amp draw will detiourate the other three, requiring replacement
>>> of all four. I’ve had this happen with a low voltage shutdown to two 5-S
>>> batteries, running the good one as well. To prevent this the ESC low V cut
>>> off would need to be set too high.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail
>>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7CKarl.Watts%40saintalphonsus.org%7C84b4707ce20b46cd42bd08d9e146feb0%7C0d91e6194a2c4c80b9598fdf518e52e8%7C0%7C0%7C637788517330492662%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HjRKRJ5UWDWV5e8jRv7brxL0cItN7N3CJ9JsBw2j%2BQY%3D&reserved=0>
>>> for Windows
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Shawn Bekheimer via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:06 AM
>>> *To: *stnagler at gmail.com; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>>> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I can’t see why not. There will be minimal loss due to connector count
>>> but most likely not noticeable.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 PM, stnagler--- via NSRCA-dist8 <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Maybe a newb question, but could 4-3s batteries work as well to get to
>>> 12s?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 20:57 Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you haven’t seen it’s, here is the video Andrew did recently
>>> comparing 10’s and 12’s
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRfKcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0&v=0Rz5WdhEJwA&feature=youtu.be
>>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRfKcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0%26v%3D0Rz5WdhEJwA%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&data=04%7C01%7CKarl.Watts%40saintalphonsus.org%7C84b4707ce20b46cd42bd08d9e146feb0%7C0d91e6194a2c4c80b9598fdf518e52e8%7C0%7C0%7C637788517330492662%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=RxxcJJRvlsZXBl9uC1B9XHvcastLee7umfmM674BkKU%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Sean Mersh via NSRCA-dist8 <
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> I have experimented with 12S batteries; I used the TP 4000mAh batteries.
>>> Average remaining capacity after one P-23 flight: 38%.
>>>
>>> With 10S TP 4400 mAh batteries: Average remaining capacity after one
>>> P-23 flight: 32%. It is the same for the newer version that is 48 g
>>> lighter, almost 2 ounces 🙂!
>>>
>>> Weight:
>>>
>>> TP 12S 4000 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1062 g
>>>
>>> TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1025 g
>>>
>>> New TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 977 g
>>>
>>> My conclusion: unless you're flying F-23 and Unknowns, 10S 4400 mAh
>>> batteries are more than adequate and save you almost 3 ounces, compared to
>>> the 12S 4000 mAh packs. I agree that the 12S batteries will probably last
>>> longer, since they are not worked as hard as 10S packs. I could not feel
>>> any performance improvement with 12S packs.
>>>
>>> As stated by other members: 12S packs are legal now in AMA classes, but
>>> not yet in FAI.
>>>
>>> Another consideration: My Mezon ESC does not automatically recognize the
>>> pack cell count. So, if I switch from 10S to 12S, I need to reprogram the
>>> ESC 😟.
>>>
>>> But, 6S (2x) cells are much more readily available than 5S or 10S packs.
>>>
>>> Lots of variables!
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Outlook
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of
>>> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 7:25 PM
>>> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone switching to 12s packs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Karl
>>>
>>>
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