[NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

Tue Sep 16 21:06:16 AKDT 2014

I have been watching this conversation with some interest. I know where most of you are coming from here but I also don’t think any of you in the discussion have been a CD for a pattern contest and had to put together a judging matrix. When the judging matrix is put together it is important to expose the contestant to as many different judges as possible. This helps keep bias to a minimum and exposes the contestant to a number of different judges. The criteria we as CD’s use is if the proposed judge has been to a judging seminar, he is qualified as a judge. I know that upper class flyers want to be judged by judges that know the routine and can know and appreciate the sequence. Now take this scenario into consideration. You have six FAI flyers. You have two Master’s flyers and five Advanced flyers at the contest. If you expect to be judged by only masters pilots then you will not be able to get six rounds in a weekend, plus because the judges are always in the chair they will get burned out and not want to participate at all. I try to not burn anyone out by being in the chair an excessive amount. 

What you are talking about is an ideal situation, but will not work. 

Dennis

From: NSRCA-dist8 [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tim via NSRCA-dist8
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 9:27 PM
To: James Hiller; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

I really think it makes more sense to have us split the judging more along the lines of proximity in classes.    I feel much more comfortable judging sequences I am really familiar with and those are the ones in close proximity to my skill level.   I think other lower class pilots feel the same.   I know this won't always work at every contest because of the small number of pilots in some of the classes but I do feel the baseline should be as I proposed before.   

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 16, 2014, at 9:17 PM, James Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Attached is an XL pivot table showing downgrades that I put together to illustrate one of the problems - knowing the specific downgrade for specific defects. Instant recall of these downgrades requires commitment to memory and I question how well any of us do it. Check FAI stall turn for example.

Jim 

From: NSRCA-dist8 [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 8:44 PM
To: Tim
Cc: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

Tim,

It's not an issue of lower class pilots judging upper classes as much as it is the CD being aware of which of those flyers do or do not have the skill set. As a for instance, in my first year of flying pattern, one CD put me in the seat to judge the F schedule. I was pretty much clueless, and it wasn't fair to me, nor the pilot. 

I certainly have never had an issue with you judging me by any means. 

I think Jim hit it on the head with familiarity of more complicated maneuvers. I think part of the burden also falls on the pilot to be honest with themselves and the CD that they may not be up to the task to judge upper classes. In the end, it really comes down to the CD or the guy setting the judging schedule. 

I did see some rather high discrepancies in a couple of FAI flights this past weekend.

Pat

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Tim <tstebbins at gmail.com <mailto:tstebbins at gmail.com> > wrote:

I just took a quick look at the raw scores for several of the pilots in the "upper classes" and I really didn't see a wide variation between judges from round to round.   In fact they were remarkably close for the most part.     I for one am not that familiar with the upper class maneuvers but I do try and be consistent on the 15 degree rule and symmetry of each maneuver.   Where I have trouble is knowing when to zero a maneuver if it didn't look I think it is supposed to look or if a maneuver is out of the box.    

I really don't feel all that comfortable judging the more expert flyers, but I do want to help out when asked.    if there is a concern regarding lower class fliers judging upper class fliers, well the solution is pretty simple.   Don't have us judge the upper classes.   You guys can judge yourselves (masters judge FAI and vice versa) and we judge ourselves (advanced judge sportsman and intermediate and intermediate judge advanced).   

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

One other issue this year is having a coupe of contest with guys in the chair for upper classes that likely shouldn't be there. I know it can be hard to get judges, but we need to be really cognoscente of this. When one judge gives 8's 9's and 10's and the other judge gives 4's and 5's, something isn't right. Invariably the guy giving out 9's and 10's hasn't been to a judging seminar. 

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Good idea.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:22 AM, astropuppy <astropuppy at gmail.com <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> > wrote:

Since we are discussing these types of  things. I'd like to discuss having a judges meet-up at the location of the six D8 contests we have every year. Nothing elaborate, no travelling,  just a local group discussion about the rules. I have found listening to and answering other peoples questions go a long way towards advancing my understanding of the rules. 

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com> > wrote:

We will support you anyway we can. 

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Karl Watts <karlwatt at sarmc.org <mailto:karlwatt at sarmc.org> > wrote:

What a great idea.  I can think of 5 or 6 guys for sure that would come.

From: astropuppy [mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:00 AM

To: Karl Watts
Cc: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY; Patrick Harris
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

Actually, it may be time to have a judging clinic in Boise and all take the online test together. There is nothing that says a none pattern person can't be a certified judge. I'm fairly certain we could talk a couple locals into judging. Especially if we entice them with free lunch. Linda Sterling never flew and she was a very good judge.

I can talk to Nathan about doing a video conference too. My home internet is more then capable of handling video conferencing.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Karl Watts <karlwatt at sarmc.org <mailto:karlwatt at sarmc.org> > wrote:

Yes, I had some discussion with one of the guys about that this past weekend.  He said there is an online test.  I am willing, would rather go to a live course.

From: astropuppy [mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 10:47 AM
To: Karl Watts
Cc: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY; Patrick Harris

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

Thanks Karl... You can help us all by becoming a certified judge. 

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Karl Watts <karlwatt at sarmc.org <mailto:karlwatt at sarmc.org> > wrote:

Mike, this is your invitation to call me for any help you need in organizing and running the contest.

From: NSRCA-dist8 [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of astropuppy via NSRCA-dist8
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 9:58 AM
To: Patrick Harris; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

I nominate Karl to CD the Boise contest next year; all in favor say "I". 

All kidding aside, I would really like to have a contest date for next year. Our club requires a membership contest approval vote. We only have three more general meetings this year and I would like to get it approved before new club officers are elected for next year.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

All great input...keep it coming. 

Karl...we have been discussing that very same issue about location of contestants and driving distance. 

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Karl Watts <karlwatt at sarmc.org <mailto:karlwatt at sarmc.org> > wrote:

Here is another idea.  Map out where contestants from this past year live.  This will help looking for the "ideal" location for the District Contest and evaluating where to have contests next year.  Also do another poll on what is the average distance people have driven/contest this past year and what is the longest willing to drive.  I am willing to do one extra long (more than 6 hours) drive/season.

From: NSRCA-dist8 [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 2:39 PM
To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Contest poll

Guy's 

This is very important. I talked to a few of you about this at Tri Cities. As always, Gordon stepped up to plate and put together a very user friendly poll to query the group to get an idea of the contest you plan to attend next year. 

As you are likely aware, the number of participants has dropped off significantly at several contest this year and needs to be addressed. My personal opinion is we just had too many contest this year and spread our small group thin. I have talked to several of you and I would like to cut the number of contest back to six or so for 2015. The other issue is trying to hold no more than one contest per month. This year, we have had several contest fall within two weeks, which puts a lot of strain of family life as well as the pocket book. 

Please find the link to the poll on the D8 site or go here:

https://doodle.com/x9pa2iey57z5z4r8

Please select only the contest you plan to attend up to 6 events. If you would like to stay anonymous, just fill in a fictitious name when completing the poll. 

As they say "if you don't vote, you have no right to complain". 

Thank you in advance,

Pat

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<Downgrade Pivot.xls>

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